“It’s not my job to educate you”

Transcript

Courtney: Hello everyone and welcome back. My name is Courtney. I’m here with my spouse Royce. Together we are The Ace Couple, and today we’re gonna have a bit of a casual episode talking mostly about some personal anecdotes, but I think they are quite reflective of a broader conversation that there is to be had. Specifically in how do we talk about queer experiences in real life, especially in an era when many, many people are first exposed to these conversations online. A lot of the conversations I’m going to allude to today are not even necessarily all super recent ones I’ve had, but I would say over the span of the last year, I have had a much higher number of new people come into my life and new groups that I have joined with a wide diversity of folks, at least for recent years. Obviously, there were several years where we didn’t even leave our house after the pandemic hit, and then there was a slow trying to in- integrate cautiously back into society phase this last year has been very, very illuminating.

Courtney: Because not only have I noticed how people socialize differently, but this is the first time in several years that I’ve had many, many real-life, in-depth, personal or broadly educational conversations about asexuality with an extremely diverse crowd. And I do gotta say, it feels very different than similar conversations I would have had pre-2020, because believe you me, I had plenty of those over the years as well. And the place I think I wanna start today’s conversation is at the phrase “it’s not my job to educate you.” In fact, I will probably title this episode something along those lines.

Courtney: Because I say and have said many a time that, yes, not every person who belongs to a marginalized identity, be it queerness, racial, disability, or otherwise, is someone who has the patience or desire to be an educator. And that is not a position anyone should have to be put in just because that’s how you are.

Courtney: But I’ve also said that I myself am a natural educator, and I love having these kind of conversations with folks who are actually interested in learning, which is very key and very important. Obviously, as ace people, I’m sure listening right now you can think off the top of your head a handful of extremely ignorant questions that either you yourself have repeatedly gotten or you’ve anecdotally heard other aces get them frequently. And yes, that can be annoying and frustrating.

Courtney: But an interesting new development I’ve started to see is allies, people who want to learn, people who want to get educated, people who want to understand enough to stand beside you in support have heard often enough over the years, “It’s not my job to educate you,” that I have had an inordinate number of people over the last 12 months essentially look me in the eyes and say, “Oh, you know, I don’t know very much about asexuality, but—” I know it’s not your job to educate me, so can you please point me to some resources where I can educate myself?

Royce: Which, this is an interesting part of culture that I’m sure people a few decades down the line will be looking back at and researching, where online communication has reached such a heavy standpoint. that the common ways of interacting with people online has completely diverged from interacting with people in person. And we’re seeing people who are at least heavily enough online to have learned these patterns now bringing them back into face-to-face conversations, and they don’t always fit.

Courtney: Yes. And I I will say right here before we go any further, I love and adore each and every one of those people who have said this to me because I know they mean well.

Courtney: And I’m I’m pretty sure it’s been a big number, a shockingly high number, and that’s why I’ve been thinking about this so much over the last 12 months because I’ve been just astonished by how often it’s happened all of a sudden. Nobody had ever said that to me pre-pandemic.

Courtney: And in fact, for the most part, anytime I would see normally someone saying, “It’s not my job to educate you,” Normally it was in an online setting, but I’ve traditionally associated this with, yes, here is just someone who is existing online as a queer person, or someone who is existing online with a particular identity, and some rando who they don’t even know comes into their comments and asks a really ignorant question or you know, in in a situation where it’s like, I don’t know you, you’re coming into my space, and because of the nature of social media, online forums, you don’t really have a gauge if this is genuinely a good faith person or if it is a troll. So there are situations where, sure, maybe just slapping someone with a ‘this is not my job, go look somewhere else’ is appropriate.

Courtney: However-

Royce: Good point there. The chance of being trolled in person is much lower because the chances of a troll getting punched in person are much higher.

Courtney: So true. And when I do say that, of of the sample size of people I’ve met and spaces I’ve inhabited in the real world, over the last year.

Courtney: It is the very left-leaning, socially progressive, it’s, you know, the democratic socialists and the anarchists, and sometimes every every now and then, once or twice, a liberal. But it is the people who genuinely do want to learn, but they do not want to risk being offensive or risking the possibility that it may be perceived that they are monopolizing my time or putting me on the spot. And so I don’t think any of these individual people are wrong for having said this. I don’t blame any of them.

Courtney: But the frequency with which I’ve gotten this has been so shocking that at this point I feel like it needs to be a cultural commentary in and of itself, because I frankly, if this is the new culture where we don’t feel like we can ask each other questions on a human level when we have these communal relationships with one another, I don’t think I like it. And to be a, you know, a little funny here for a second, it’s especially odd when you’re asking me about asexual issues because I actually genuinely had someone say like, oh, I’m not much of a reader. Do you have any like videos or podcasts I could listen to?

Courtney: And I was like, I’m not going to tell the person right here in front of my face that I see at least a couple times a month. Yeah, go listen to my podcast. No, I I don’t, as a general rule, want people I’m in real life community with to listen to our podcast.

Courtney: Some of them still do, and that’s fine. They are allowed to do that.

Courtney: But what I try to tell each and every one of those people is, you know, you know me in person, so I would rather we just have an in-person conversation about this. Not because I’m worried or embarrassed about anything they might hear. I stand by the things I say, and I’ll say very similar things in real life face-to-face with you, but I can tailor that conversation to the individual if I’m right in front of you and we’re having a conversation. Right now, I’m just talking into a microphone and my spouse is on the other side of it. I don’t know who is listening to us. So sometimes I feel like I need to cover all of our bases, or maybe there’s something I haven’t thought to say because it isn’t a free-flowing back and forth conversation. So I don’t know what’s in your head when I’m talking into the void.

Courtney: The beauty of a real-life conversation is I can meet that person where they are at. And another thing that is extremely odd, even if I say, you know, don’t listen to my podcast, here’s, you know, another ace activist or another ace creator. Pretty much any ace resource that I would be recommending to someone right now is a personal friend of mine or a colleague, someone I have spoken to, someone whose number I have in my phone that I can pick up and call if I need to.

Courtney: Um, and that’s just a a very odd place to be in. Having someone be like, “Give me the educational resources,” and it’s like, me and all my friends, we’re the educational resources, but you’re asking me to my face, so it’s like, I’m right here, actually. Like, no, it literally is my job to educate you. Please, please let me educate you.

Courtney: So that’s just sort of a funny um flipping of the script that I have observed far more often recently than I ever thought I would. And I have now and then someone saying, “Oh, you know, you have a podcast, great, I will just go listen to that because I don’t want to take up your time.”

Courtney: It’s like, well, we’re already right here. This is already what I’m doing. We’re in the room together. Let’s get into it.

Courtney: If not, like, do you want to set up a coffee? Like, we can go get coffee next week and have this conversation. We can schedule this shit if you want. That’s fine.

Courtney: I have told people who have been interested in listening to our podcast, like, if you know me, in real pers- like, in real person. If you know me in real life, sure, go ahead and scroll some titles of our podcast episodes and maybe descriptions, and if a topic seems interesting or surprising to you, just ask me about it and let’s talk.

Courtney: And this is purely a me thing. This is obviously not going to be every asexual in the world, but I much prefer to have an in-person conversation with someone than pretty much anything else. I understand that at scale, on a podcast, I’m reaching a lot more people. There are people across the world who have been able to listen to us and resonate with some of the things we’ve said, and that’s wonderful, and that can’t be replicated with one face-to-face conversation at a time. So there is real value there, but for me, emotionally and spiritually, I gain a lot more from having a heart-to-heart conversation with another person face-to-face than I do right now in this moment speaking into a microphone, even though there are tens of thousands of people who are going to be able to hear my voice and hear my experiences because of the fact that we’ve been making these podcasts and we have those listeners from all over the world.

Courtney: And let me tell you, it’s been hard to actually get these dear, wonderful allies to understand that. There have been a handful of these occasions where I’ll be like, no, don’t listen to my podcast. Don’t read the book that has a chapter about me in it. Don’t do this, don’t do that. Don’t like just ask me the questions. I promise I will not be offended because I I see you mean well.

Courtney: Let’s just- and and sometimes they still won’t. They’re like, no, no, no. They’re like, no. And that’s a funny thing.

Courtney: That’s an odd position to be put in because for how emphatic so many people online over these years have been about “it’s not my job to educate you,” I do feel like sometimes I am literally begging. No, I beg. Let me educate you.

Courtney: But then if it is someone who’s like, “You know, maybe I am a reader, give me a list of books,” I can do that. I have given lists of book recommendations.

Courtney: I’m not 100% opposed to doing it. But if someone’s breaking out a pen and paper and being like, “Great, give me titles to books,” Like, ah, but we’re already right here. Can’t we just talk?

Courtney: But I also have like tiers of books to read. Like, are you going to need- the the kind of person I would recommend Ace Notes to is a different kind of person I’d recommend Being Ace to, who’s another person.

Courtney: Well, I I would recommend everybody read Refusing Compulsory Sexuality. But depending on how ignorant you are of all ace issues, maybe there is a more 101 resource you ought to start with first. But different resources have different audiences, and if you aren’t even asking me the questions you have on your mind, I don’t know what kind of audience you are yet. And there was one goofy moment where this person was trying to like ask this of several people of several different identities all at once. And sure, we can give them the benefit of the doubt and say they will eventually read all these books, but it was very much a situation of like, oh, you’re asexual? I don’t know much about asexuality.

Courtney: Can you give me a reading list of books? Oh, you’re a trans man? I don’t know much about trans men. Can you give me a reading list of books?

Courtney: Oh, you’re nonbinary. I don’t know much about that. Can you- and and and I think uh there was also autism in there, like, oh, do you have recommendations for me to read more about autism?

Courtney: And it’s like, at this point, you are not gonna read all of these books. I do not believe that you’re gonna read all of these books. And if you do, it’s gonna take you a long time. And even if in your heart of hearts, you really do want to read these books, you really do want to consume these resources because you really want to understand, just the amount of time it will take to get through when you’re in this circle of people right now.

Courtney: We’re all right here. We can we can talk and commiserate and maybe not only start your journey of growing your understanding, but also fostering community amongst one another. I feel like I’ve said the word community a lot here, but that to me really, really is key. Because you do need to have some amount of personal connection and heart-to-hearts with someone to plant those seeds of community and to foster this relationship, either on a one-on-one level or a group of friends or a group of colleagues, whatever the situation is here. And there’s something, at least to me, that feels very sanitized about just asking for resources to walk away with. Because even if I say, okay, go read this book, go listen to this podcast, go do that, even if that person does that, that doesn’t necessarily mean that they’ve learned more about me or my experience or the experience of being an asexual, say, in this particular time and place that we inhabit.

Courtney: And time and place and connection does really matter. And I have to wonder if by following the correct script of being a good ally and understanding it’s not someone’s job to educate you, and perhaps there is a little bit of anxiety about if we have this conversation, am I gonna say something ignorant? Am I going to say something offensive?

Courtney: I think it almost feels like another wall. It feels like I, as someone who is in community with you, can’t ask you these questions. There’s a barrier here and I have to stop.

Courtney: And I frankly don’t think that’s good. In fact, it might be bad.

Royce: It’s bad. I think a lot of things leaching into-

Courtney: Real life?

Royce: I was about to say, yeah, I was about to say IRL, but I was trying to figure out how to phrase it. There are a lot of things that are the way they are because the internet is what it is, because online you end up interacting with people at a scale that is frankly impossible in person, and because of that, some things have to change. But a lot of the habits that are being created online are not beneficial to in-person conversation.

Courtney: Yeah. And what makes this even more interesting, let’s add the additional element here now, so we’ve got the well-meaning allies who are following the script, who are saying the right things and trying to educate themselves because that’s what you’re supposed to do. I I do feel like the culture does make it feel like that’s the right thing to do and that it’s not necessarily a natural, organic way to talk to someone or to try to gain uh more knowledge. I said it’s been a wide diversity of people that I have met and started connecting with over the last year, some of them are not online, some of them are not trying to follow a script for being a good ally, some of them are quite ignorant still of asexuality in a way that, you know, frankly threw me right back to like 2012 when I was like, whoa, it has actually been a really long time since I have been bombarded with this number of like back-to-back ignorant questions.

Courtney: So to take one example, new person in my life finds out I’m asexual and like in the span of a few minutes, I got hit with uh hormone problem question mark, fertility problem question mark, “Is it because of trauma? Is it because of your condition?” This is someone who already knows um a fair bit about my disabilities.

Courtney: Just like every stereotype in the book that we as an ace community, as a group of asexual people, might at times get around a table and bitch about. Like, “Oh, this question again.” “Oh, I wish this stereotype would die.” I actually thought that that was a much more productive conversation in the end than any of the people following this new ally script.

Courtney: Because although this individual was very ignorant and was, you know, ignorant enough to not even know that these are stereotypes, it was just off the top of my head, having never heard of this before, what does it mean? These are like, off the top of my head, all the things I think it could mean.

Courtney: It was someone who did still very much care to learn. And I think that care matters so much. And for some reason, I think our culture has deprioritized that well-meaningness in others. And in the times we’re in now, where we do have horrible bigoted people in the highest offices in our country, where we do have people who are targeting a variety of minority identities with dangerous laws, I think looking for the people who really want to learn and seeing them and acknowledging like, yes, you personally are not responsible for the fact that my entire life people have been telling me I need to get my hormones checked. You as an individual are not the reason why there is such ignorance about the intersection of disability and asexuality. And this is a kind of mindset that I genuinely don’t think works online.

Courtney: And I don’t want it to work online and I’m not advocating for it. The next random-ass person you’ve never heard of in your life who asks you an invasive question about your life online, I’m not saying go ahead and give that person the benefit of the doubt. But if someone in your real life that you are in community with, that you see regularly or need to see regularly, if that person genuinely wants to understand you a little bit better, I do think that’s a very beautiful thing.

Courtney: And although that conversation started off with just about every ace stereotype in the book, it became a long conversation. Uh, we chatted for well over an hour.

Courtney: And this person did reach a level of understanding because they wanted to. And there is just an element of reading the room that- can happen if you’re in a literal room. That doesn’t necessarily uh translate to online.

Courtney: And you know, it’s it’s just a funny, funny thing because while I was having that conversation, and I I am someone who does not anger easily, I am someone with an abundance of patience, and I am a natural educator, so I am probably the best person that they could have asked these ignorant questions to, because I have a genuine desire to answer those questions and meet them where they’re at. And this person is still in my life and has said things uh more recently since our conversation that really does prove to me that that conversation was very productive.

Courtney: Uh they did internalize a lot of what I said and they’re they’ve just become more sensitive to some of these things. And yes, I know that education and that conversation and just literally being given some new information that they have never been exposed to before is a part of that. But the side that goes hand in hand with that is that this person does have a personal relationship with me. And this person not only wants to understand me and my experience better, but they aren’t just trying and seeking to be a good ally for the asexual community. They are someone who is trying to be a good friend to me. And part of being a good friend to me can entail being a good ally to the community. But when these two things can grow and develop in tandem, I genuinely think that’s something that this world needs more of.

Courtney: And it just really hit me because I had had several conversations that weren’t even conversations. It was just, you know, give me your resources. I I know it’s not your job to educate me. That it’s a funny, funny thing to say.

Courtney: It almost felt refreshing to get the ignorant questions again. It really almost did because like at a macro level, yeah, it’s not great that so many aces get the same ignorant questions over and over again.

Courtney: That’s not great. But for that one conversation, there wasn’t malice in it. And I have been asked these questions with malice, so I know what that looks like. And if there is a situation where someone is just being cruel. No, of course you don’t need to educate that person. That is the person who it is not your job to educate. But I kind of realized that day, I would rather someone ask me ignorant questions with genuine love and curiosity in their heart than to have someone who doesn’t ask me those questions. out of fear of offending me or out of social pressure to do allyship the correct way.

Courtney: And I don’t know, maybe this is gonna be a widely unpopular take, maybe this is a take that is ahead of its time, but just like you alluded to earlier, Royce, I wouldn’t be surprised if like 10 years from now, there’s gonna be like, “Oh, remember that era?”

Royce: Well, I think even more than remember that era, I think the past 20-ish years have been such a huge fundamental change in how humanity functions.

Courtney: Yeah.

Royce: Unlike anything that has happened in the entirety of human history, most likely, at this speed at least. I’m sure that there were other changes, but you’d probably have to look over generations to kind of see them fully come into place. But the internet has changed things so rapidly that I think within a generation of time, we’ve seen massive difference in communication styles and behaviors and communities that we have not seen before. And I think, as an aside, it’s very evident as each generation is like we barely know how to speak or deal with the previous generation because it has changed so drastically that this is kind of a time period that is a very unique sociological or psychological profile that will be heavily studied.

Courtney: Oh, no doubt. And in in more than just this one particular circumstance we’re talking about.

Courtney: But it it is just funny to me because for so much so much of the cultural commentary right now that’s very popular is, oh, we’re so lonely. We don’t have friends anymore, we don’t know how to be in community with one another. And to a larger extent, you know, politically, a lot of the conversation, rightfully so, if you ask me, has shifted from like, yeah, voting is not enough, you should have a local community, you should get involved in mutual aid. There is direct action that can be done with your community that is not just you know, retweeting politicians and op-eds. And I know this has hit some people differently, this has hit some generations differently, but of course the social ramifications of the pandemic are so complex that I don’t think we’ll properly understand them for a very long time.

Courtney: But on a small scale, on on my local level, the people around me I’ve witnessed, um a lot of people are very willing to say, “Yeah, I have to learn how to socialize again.” It’s it is like a reprogramming kind of a process. And with Gen z getting older, Gen Alpha getting older, um even for that matter, millennials and Gen X who had been online previous to this. Many of them became even more online during that period of time, during some huge cultural changes.

Courtney: So even the folks who are making a concerted effort to find that community right now, of course, aren’t going to do everything perfectly. Because again, I am not blaming any individual person, but perhaps those of you listening are allosexual people, and maybe you yourself have known an ace person in real life that you have felt a little anxious about asking questions to. Maybe that’s why you found our podcast. Maybe you asked them for a list of resources and they gave you our podcast.

Courtney: If that’s the case, that is fine. Just do as they say.

Courtney: But at least here on this podcast, you know, we talk a little bit about our personal experiences, we talk a little bit about history, we talk a little bit about culture, we talk about relevant news and studies. So you get a little bit of everything depending on which episode you tune into. But even if you listen to some episodes of this podcast, you might gain a broader understanding about common ace experiences or our ace experiences, but that doesn’t definitively mean that you have learned anything tangible and important about the asexual person in your life. With the caveat of, if the asexual person in your life said, “Hey, this episode really resonates with me, I want you to listen to this,” then that is a very specifically curated- there’s probably a reason, there’s probably a conversation that was had that sparked that very specific recommendation.

Courtney: As with all things, there’s going to be some exceptions, but on a large scale, I truly do not think we need more reasons to not talk to each other. And I think wanting to understand more about someone might be the silliest reason to not talk to that someone.

Courtney: You know what I mean? If you boil it down like that and say, I want to understand more about your experience-

Royce: But only vaguely.

Courtney: But I don’t want to talk to you about it, so I’m gonna go somewhere else. That is, I think we can all agree, objectively weird. But the culture we’re in and the way things have evolved over the last several years, I see and understand why people feel like this is the right thing to do and the right thing to say. But when you take a step back and look at it as a big picture, that it’s silly. That that is that is silly.

Courtney: This is a much less personal experience, but I have found myself telling this story to other people several times recently. But you were actually the one who was there.

Courtney: So why don’t you tell the story of um the couple that walks our neighborhood?

Royce: Oh yeah, I was just doing some yard work and there’s a couple that occasionally walks by and has basically the same conversation with us about some plants out front.

Courtney: Well, it’s really sweet because they they used to walk around during the period of time where like my neighbor and I would be out doing tai chi. So sometimes they’d just like stop and watch us swinging swords or spears around or something and we kind of say hi, but-

Royce: Yeah, she asked about a flag and said, “Oh, what is that?” And I paused for a moment, thinking, trying to figure out how to answer this question. And after my allotted, you know, like two seconds before the pause gets weird, I just said, “That’s the asexual flag.” And immediately after that, she was like, “Oh, okay, I really like the colors. They look really nice against the house.”

Royce: So I don’t know if that registered at all. But there were no follow-up questions.

Courtney: There weren’t any follow-up questions.

Royce: She was also walking away while she asked because they were walking their dog, but-

Courtney: I just think that’s really sweet. She asked a question and she got an answer, and she was like, “Well, that’s wonderful.” I like it.

Courtney: And you know, that’s not someone we’re having deep heartfelt conversations with, but I don’t know, maybe she did go home and Google what asexual means, or maybe she kind of has a vague idea of it but just didn’t know there was a flag or didn’t know what it looked like. But I don’t know, I just thought that was sweet. Meanwhile, I have been at Pride events next to someone who will like ask me like, “Do you know what that flag is? I haven’t seen that one before.”

Courtney: And sure, sometimes I know the answer, but it’s like, you could also ask that person. They’re like, “Oh, I don’t wanna ask that person.” I’ve seen people Google like, “Pride flag with the colors,” and then like typing in the colors in order that you see. see them to try to get like a Google answer.

Courtney: I dunno, feels very impersonal to me. So yeah, I dunno, I suppose that’s just a little food for thought for the day for allies afraid to ask questions or aces who are exhausted by ignorant questions, or any of you who have seen other, I’ll say, popularized online styles of speaking start to really bleed into the real world. And I guess last note, which is, you know, quite related, I think, um, along the same lines, the sort of uh, “Google is free,” or “just Google it.”

Courtney: Sure, sometimes as a snappy comeback to someone who you do not know if they are good faith or not online, sure, what have you. But I do kind of think especially in the era where if you literally Google something right now, the first thing you’re gonna see is an AI-generated response, and those AI-generated responses are heavily skewed toward- well, right now, as of the time of recording, it is Reddit. I think almost every Google AI response I’ve read contains Reddit links. Because that’s one of the only sort of social media forum-style things that you can read and have access to without having an account.

Courtney: And I think that also, if the goal is to foster community, that’s not a good way to do it. I’m someone who- I’ve been making an active effort, actually, to use search engines less often. ’Cause I know, increasingly so over the years, as someone who loves to learn new things, if I have a passing curiosity or something I don’t know, I will search it immediately. But the amount of that information that I’m searching a day that I actually retain long-term, very, very small, very insignificant percentage of quick Google, “Oh, okay, it’s more to say to quick curiosity.” than it is to genuinely learn something. And at least because I am fortunate enough to be someone who has an ever-expanding community of people in my real life, if I have a curiosity about a topic, I probably know someone who, off the top of their head, knows more about this than me.

Courtney: For example, I’m not an astrology person. I don’t think I’m ever gonna be an astrology person. But I do know several people who are astrology people, and every now and then if I hear like a comedian make a joke about a Sagittarius, or someone says, “Oh, I’m a quintessential Gemini,” like that doesn’t tell me anything. Yeah, I could Google it real quick. and get the answer.

Courtney: Will I remember what that is long-term? Absolutely not.

Courtney: I’ve started saving that. If I’m curious enough about it, I will save it until the next time I see one of my astrology friends.

Courtney: And now it’s a conversation. “Hey, I heard this joke the other day.

Courtney: What does that mean to you? Is it funny? If so, why is it funny?” And then not only does it become a conversation where someone I care about can tell me about something they care about, I actually end up remembering that information because it became a physical touchpoint, a real conversation I had with someone, and there was side commentary. And it’s just, in my personal experience, a much better way to live life.

Courtney: And if it’s a big, big, big curiosity, that keeps coming back and back and back, maybe I will try to pick up an actual nonfiction book about this topic. But I’ve just sort of learned that, you know, a a quick answer to my question is not actually nourishing my mind or feeding my soul. So I’m trying to actively do less of it. And a really positive benefit has also been I’ve deepened my ties to my community. It’s kind of been a win-win.

Courtney: And so when I do see, because I have seen, someone who is a member of the asexual community maybe ask a question to someone who said something a little confusing, you know, “Where did you find this information? Where did this come from? I’ve never heard of this.”

Courtney: I don’t think “Google is free” is a good answer to that if we are in the same community. And if we’re trying to educate ourselves and each other and build a sense of shared camaraderie, because not only has Google gotten less effective, a lot of search engines seem to have gotten less effective, but there is so much misinformation out there that if you just send someone off into the search engine ether, maybe they’ll come across the wrong information. Maybe you’re the one giving the wrong information and someone asking you the question finds a completely different answer when they go to Google.

Courtney: And you know, if you don’t want to be a social person, if you don’t want community, if you don’t want to be an educator, that’s fine. You do you. But it has gotten increasingly bothersome to me when someone, you know, says, “I want community and I am an educator and I am an advocate,” But then you do see this very type of behavior that I see as being very hostile to building healthy community, actually. Because at the end of the day, if you want to build a relationship with someone, you have to find a way to communicate. So with that, we will leave you off as always with today’s featured marketplace vendor.

Courtney: Moth Monarch, where you can find insect and nature-inspired original merch by an independent ace and agender artist. And oh my goodness, do I love this insect art.

Courtney: I’ve actually found myself almost completely out of cards. I like to keep a handful of like really nice greeting cards around the house, so if I ever need to write a little note to someone, I’ve got something nice already in my drawer.

Courtney: And I was getting startlingly low. So imagine how delighted I was when I found this gorgeous card with a death’s-head hawkmoth on it. You all must understand how much I love a good death’s-head hawkmoth, and this is a gorgeous card. There’s also one with a beautiful scarab beetle on it.

Courtney: And if you want something a little cuter, a little funnier, there’s a “Do a little dance, you’re a little bug, get down tonight” postcard. which is adorable. There’s a bee here, a caterpillar. Royce, you know a thing or two about caterpillars.

Royce: Yeah, I wonder when all of our others are going to hatch. They might be overwintering.

Royce: I’m not sure.

Courtney: I wouldn’t be surprised if several of them overwinter. How many do we have?

Royce: I don’t have an exact count, but three hatched and 25-ish didn’t. We had a lot of parsley growing this year, so there were a lot of Eastern, Eastern black swallowtail caterpillars.

Courtney: Oh, they love parsley. And we’ve had them for years, but normally only a small handful, but all of a sudden, boom, 30 caterpillars.

Courtney: If handwritten cards are not your thing, we’ve got a lot of other options here. We’ve got some stickers, we’ve got some good sturdy metal pins. Some are little adorable and cute and cartoony. Some are just like ethereal and gorgeous. So we’ve got a variety of very cool art styles here.

Courtney: So the link to Find Moth Monarch will be in all the usual places, the description box if you’re listening on YouTube or the show notes on our website. Definitely check out this shop. Oh, see, Royce, I should have gotten you this sticker if you were the kind of person who puts stickers on things.

Courtney: It’s a little caterpillar eating a leaf and it says, “Keep growing.” So as always, thank you all so much for listening, and we will talk to you all next time.