r/AmITheAsshole? Asexuality Edition #6

Transcript Transcribed by Laura M.

Courtney: Hello everyone and welcome back. My name is Courtney, I am here with my spouse, Royce, and together we are The Ace Couple. And we are back once again for another rousing episode of r/AmItheAsshole Asexuality Edition. We’re starting with an awfully fun one, entitled: “Am I the asshole for not attending my daughter’s gender reveal for her lizard?” I believe that somehow this link got erroneously posted to a previous episode of ours in the show notes, and a couple of you noticed and were crestfallen that we did not actually read this on that episode. So we are starting with it first, just for all of you. I guess I should also mention, because we’ll put all of the links as usual in our show notes, apparently, when I say links in our show notes, that means our website and YouTube. Is that right? Where can people see those?

Royce: Yes, the show notes are available on our website and on YouTube. And I believe all of the various podcasting platforms should link to our website.

Courtney: Okay. Because I recently learned – very good professional podcaster here – recently learned that… Was it Spotify that had comments?

Royce: Yes.

Courtney: I didn’t know, I had no idea. So if you’ve ever left us a comment on Spotify, I just read all of them last week. [laughs]

Royce: Well, Spotify was weird. Up until very recently all comments required manual approval.

Courtney: Ah…

Royce: And they finally switched more to a scanned, potentially holding, inappropriate comment situation, like the rest of the internet.

Courtney: Mmh, I see. Well, a couple of those comments on Spotify were like: “FYI, there aren’t links on Spotify.” Like, the links in your show notes aren’t showing up on Spotify. And I was like, “Oh no, Royce, there’s a problem. How do we fix it?”

Royce: We’ve mentioned before that our show notes aren’t a part of the podcast description.

Courtney: Apparently, they are not a part of the podcast description.

Royce: So, while we’re at it, the website is also where you go if you want to read or search through transcripts.

Courtney: Yes. We have the entire transcripts on our website. And links to all of these fun Am I The Asshole stories. So, without further ado, let’s get to the lizard gender reveal. Really strong start. The very first sentence is: This is literally really stupid, but she’s really upset about it. So I’m 48. My daughter is 23.

Courtney: [reading] “My daughter has a blue tongue Skink who she heavily adores. She jokingly refers to it as her daughter. I’ve found it weird but she says it’s because it’s the closest thing she’d have to a child and she feels a strong emotional bond similar to a child. She has decided to remain child free for multiple reasons and I have been very supportive of this decision.

Courtney: Well she recently took her Skink to the vet for a checkup and she was excited to find out her Skinks gender. Afterwards I got a text asking if I’d come to her gender reveal party she was having. She explained it was just a small get together with cake and food for her friends she hasn’t seen in a while with the gender reveal being mostly a joke (and a way to make fun of real gender reveals).

Courtney: Well I didn’t come. I didn’t see a point. It’s just a lizard and I’m a busy person. She later called me and expressed she was kind of sad I didn’t come ’cause it’d been a while since I’d seen her but she understood I was busy. I told her she couldn’t actually expect me to come to a gender reveal for a lizard. She said that it wasn’t a real gender reveal, that was more of a joke and it was really just a small gathering to catch up with everyone. I told her if that was the case she should’ve just called it a gathering because I’m not coming to a gender reveal unless it’s for a real granddaughter.

Courtney: She got quiet for a minute and then turned my words around, claiming I wasn’t supportive of her decision to be childfree. I told her she can’t possibly expect me to treat a lizard as a grand daughter, she said she didn’t expect me too but it was clear I didn’t respect her bond with her lizard and her decision, and she just wanted to see me and my reason for coming was hurtful.”

Courtney: I imagine that’s: reason for not coming was hurtful. [resumes reading] “I told her she was being ridiculous over a lizard, she claimed it wasn’t over the lizard and it was a gathering and not even centered around the lizard, but I stick by to what I said. It’s ridiculous to have a gender reveal for a lizard.

Courtney: She hung up and I got a message from her best friend about how I’m an asshole for treating her that way, but I don’t think I’m the asshole for not wanting to go to a party for a lizard?”

Courtney: So we do have an edit to clear a couple things up, but before we get what I’m sure is much needed clarity, what are our thoughts?

Royce: Well, OP seems very hung up on the gender reveal part of it. Because her daughter has tried to explain multiple times that’s not really what this is about, but that’s what she keeps going back to in the post. And I assume the need for the edits were because most of the commenters did not agree with the post. [Courtney agrees] That’s oftentimes why edits are made. Sometimes they’re made for clarity if something wasn’t specified, but–

Courtney: Right, if commenters are asking for more info. But I mean, right off the bat, her daughter sounds so much fun. Her daughter sounds like someone I could be friends with, and OP sounds miserable. Life is so short. Find silly, frivolous reasons to have a party and get together with your loved ones and be goofy! And let yourself be ridiculous. Honestly, this kind of reminds me of when we had our Feet’s Day party for Weebo.

Royce: Mm-hmm, yeah.

Courtney: We had a– We had a tadpole that we were trying to raise to a frog, and the day he got feet we were like, “Happy feet’s day! Time to have a party.” So we invited all of our friends over for our tadpole’s Feet’s Day party and it was great. We played board games. I actually went to, like, the party store, like, Party America type store, and we got, like, balloons that had feet on them. And we got, like, party favors that had feet– Like little couple dollar plastic trinkets that were just goofy little feet related things. Because a lot of them actually were for, like, gender reveal things. A lot of them were like, oh, here’s a pack of pink feet versus blue feet, so you can use this, like, cute little baby feet for your gender reveal party. So I actually got so many gender reveal things for our tadpole’s Feet’s Day party and just went all out. And it was a blast. And it was so goofy and silly and fun and I will treasure that memory forever. Just like– And the fact that she’s inviting you, as a 23 year old girl who’s getting together with friends and having this get together…?

Courtney: I feel like there are a lot of mothers who wish that their 23 year old daughter would invite them to their parties, you know? So I don’t know, and just, “I’m a busy person and I don’t have time for a lizard.” There’s– it’s– it’s extrapolating, but there’s gotta be some other resentment other than just the lizard. Like, maybe there actually is a seed of, “I am genuinely bitter, I’m not going to have a human grandchild.” She says that’s not the case, but yeah. The comment to her daughter, whether she genuinely feels resentment about that or not, the comment of, “I’m not going to show up to a party unless it’s for a real granddaughter.” That’s not okay to say. You are the asshole for that. Because whether you meant it that way or not, how is your child-free 23 year old daughter supposed to take that? Like, is that supposed to make her feel like you support her decision? Because it doesn’t sound like it. So, uh, let’s– let’s see if the edits, uh, help anything.

Courtney: [reading] “Edit one: My issue is that she said the party was a gender reveal, if she had called it just a party I would have come. But calling it a gender reveal makes it sound like it’s for the lizard, and I’m not going to that even if it is a – quote – ‘joke’.” Oh my gosh, lighten up. Go– go to the gender reveal for the lizard! It’ll be fun! [chuckles] I– I’d go to a gender reveal for a lizard I don’t even know. That’s how heavily I support lizard gender reveal parties. Edit two: [resumes reading] “I don’t know why it matters but the Skink is a girl which is why I said “I’m not coming to a gender reveal unless it’s for a real granddaughter.”

Courtney: – Edit three – “Even though I don’t agree with my daughter for being childfree, I have been supportive and only shown mild frustration. The reasons she decided to be childfree is she claims she’s asexual, she just doesn’t want one, she has emotional baggage and feels unable to care for a real child, she fears pregnancy, and she has a carrier gene like me and “doesn’t want to go through what I did” (I had 4 miscarriages and a highly defect child that died after 3 months due to the gene). Yes there has been slight tension between us because I think she just hasn’t found the right man (she never dated growing up) and her other fears are unnecessarily exaggerated, but it’s ultimately her decision and I don’t resent her.”

Courtney: Ooh!! That was a lot!

Royce: So edit number three is… the whole post.

Courtney: That’s– [laughs]

Royce: That’s what we were searching for. That is the clarifier.

Courtney: Oh… and then edit number four: “We haven’t seen each other in three months. I’m a single mother and we have already– and we have always been close, which is why she invited me with her friends. I just didn’t want to go to a party with a lizard, and if it wasn’t for the lizard, she should have called it a party instead of a gender reveal.” Um OP, you are dripping with resentment. And acephobia, which are not always the same thing, but they can go hand in hand.

Royce: Yeah.

Courtney: In child free cases.

Royce: So the reason this blew up is because the term gender reveal was used, and that is a sore spot for someone who does not accept their child’s orientation or their lifestyle, like their plans for their future, and doesn’t know how to get over that.

Courtney: She wants to go to a real gender reveal.

Royce: Yes, she wants grandchildren.

Courtney: And I think the gender reveal for the lizard is just a reminder that that is not in the cards. But yeah, the reason why I say there’s not only resentment, there’s also acephobia is this little line: “The reason she decided to be child free is she claims she’s asexual.” Not, “she is asexual.” Again, swap this out with any other sexual orientation. “She claims she’s a lesbian. My son claims he’s gay.” You– No. Your daughter is asexual. Your daughter is asexual. By adding on that little, “she claims–” And also the, “I think she just hasn’t found the right man.” Stop it! Stop it. So yes, OP you are the asshole. And the top comment is maybe my favorite comment I’ve ever seen on this forum, if not all of Reddit. “You’re the asshole. That’s your grand-lizard.” [laughs]

Royce: Yeah, with the title of this post being as abnormal as it is, it got a lot of activity. And some of the comments are great. One early comment just says: “OP is an even bigger asshole for not telling us whether the grand-lizard is a boy or girl, which was clarified in an edit.”

Courtney: [laughs] I know! Leave us all in suspense like that.

Royce: I mean there’s a lot of: “Just reading your post, you told on yourself here. Clearly you understand that this was a joke and you refuse to go out of spite because your daughter won’t have kids.” I did see just a chain here that’s just, “Hey, I’m having a pirate themed party. I can’t go, I don’t own a boat. I’m not going to your murder mystery dinner if no one’s actually going to be killed. [Courtney laughs] I’m throwing an 80s party. Time travel is impossible.”

Courtney: Yeah, just have fun and be silly! Relish the ridiculosity of it all. I don’t understand. I am super curious though, because clearly OP is acephobic, does not actually support her daughter. It always– it always fascinates me every time someone like this – and we have seen several at this point – will say like, “I am supportive,” but then they give us all the evidence to show that they’re not supportive. And it’s like, if this is what you’re saying when you’re trying to fight to be seen as supportive, what– like– ugh, what happens when we take the mask all the way off? So I do wonder how much of it is specifically the resentment from not getting a grandchild, because is this someone who is just so anti fun? Where– If this was my mother and sounds like– Thank– thank goodness she’s not. Would she have come to our Feet’s Day party? Because it’s not– It’s not baby related. I accide–

Royce: Even though there were some baby party decors, because that’s the only thing relatable to find.

Courtney: I accidentally did get party favors like that, but that was after I contacted a friend of mine who sold oddities to be like, “Do you have like an antique anatomical model of a foot?” And they did. But I couldn’t justify spending that much money for the Feet’s Day party. So I was like, “Great, cheap party favors it is.” But like yeah, would it– Would this person be like, “No, I’m not going to a party for your tadpole, that’s ridiculous.”

Royce: Depends entirely on if it was framed in a way that reminded them of their frustration over grandkids.

Courtney: Yeah, that’s what makes me wonder, is how much of it is that and how much of it is just OP being anti-fun.

Royce: I think it’s like 99.5% the first one. I mean, maybe they’re also not fun, but this just seemed like it brought up an issue that they feel is unresolved, because they don’t want to accept reality.

Courtney: Also blue-tongued skinks are great.

Royce: Mm-hmm. This is a very happy unified comment section. Like, I found a part someone just said, “Wow, all the same answers to this AITA. This place is becoming a real gecko chamber.”

Courtney: [Pained groan] Gecko chamber! [laughs]

Royce: “OP definitely turned out to be the anole here.”

Courtney: Oh, it’s so good. All right, I’m actually issuing two verdicts for this. We have the gavel ready. OP is in fact the asshole and this comment section is, in fact, the best. And I wanna be friends with all of them. [hits gavel] [giggles]

Royce: This next post is: “Am I the asshole for asking my friend to stop talking about what she does with her boyfriend? I – a 20 year old woman – have a friend – also a 20 year old woman – who has been dating this guy recently. It’s her first boyfriend, so she’s really excited and talks a lot about him. Though I do sometimes find it a little bit annoying as he is now pretty much the center of our conversations, I’m just glad she’s happy, so I still listen to her and get interested. It really started bothering me once she told me that they had done IT – all caps and italicized – for the first time. Once again, she was really excited and said it was an amazing experience. Since then she started often telling me about her bedroom life, sometimes going into details.

Royce: Here’s the problem: I’m asexual. Not the type of asexual who is sex positive, but the hardcore type who wants nothing to do with any of that. My friend does know that, of course, the topic of sex in general just makes me uncomfortable. At first I tried being nice and I still listened to her, but at some point it just got to be too much.

Royce: One day I just asked her if she could avoid talking about her bedroom life, as it made me feel uncomfortable, since I’m ace. She just got really hurt, telling me that we were best friends and that she should be able to talk about it with me.

Royce: She also said that I was a bit selfish and that I needed to grow up and stop acting like a child, referring to my asexuality. Then she started ranting about how, anyway, it was obvious I disliked her boyfriend because I never talked to him. It’s not the case. Her boyfriend is cool. I’m just a very quiet person. Now she’s still talking to me, but it is just very cold between the two of us. I don’t know if she’s right and if I should have made more efforts.” Immediate impression?

Courtney: Uh… Friend seems a little acephobic. I mean, what was that line there? About uh grow up?

Royce: Grow up, yeah.

Courtney: Calling any asexual person childless–

Royce: Child-ish.

Courtney: Childish. For their, uh, lack of attraction is a horrific, uh, acephobic stereotype. Not cool.

Royce: Friend here seems to lack a lot of self-awareness too, which I– It’s common for someone who is in a new relationship, for that to suddenly become their whole world, particularly if it’s their first one.

Courtney: Yeah.

Royce: But like, do you have other friends who are okay with you talking about this thing? You’re kind of just unloading a lot onto one person who has already made it clear that they aren’t comfortable hearing some of these details.

Courtney: Yeah. And the thing that always gets me with this, like– I’ve known people to, like, lash out at me or other aces when you’re like, “Hey, I’d rather not talk about sex, I’d rather this not always be what our conversation comes back to.” ’Cause it can very often feel like we just live in a completely sex-obsessed world, and especially with our own interpersonal friendships, like sometimes it feels like, “Really? I can’t even get away from that here? With my own very good friend?” So that frustration is very real for a lot of aces who’d prefer not to talk about these things. But what always surprises me is the reaction of anger that can come from trying to essentially establish a boundary. Essentially, this is an ace person saying, “Hey, I’d rather not talk about this, this is my boundary, this doesn’t make me comfortable.” And instead of respecting that, all of a sudden, well, you’re the one who’s the problem. Your boundaries are bad, your experience and preference is wrong. And that’s not okay, whether or not the conversation is about sex.

Royce: Yeah, there’s a bit of a sense of entitlement that I should be able to talk about literally anything that I want to talk about and you’re supposed to just be happy and listen to it. Where, if you got into anything else– I mean, again, not even talking about sex, but you know, if someone just got, like, hyper focused on a special interest of theirs and wanted to talk about every little detail of that for two hours, a lot of people would just tune out. Like a lot of friends would tune out or be like, “I’m tired of hearing this,” or “I want to go do something else.”

Courtney: Yeah, that can happen. And like there is also something to be said– Like a lot of times someone can still have fun hearing about something that they aren’t particularly interested in. Because sometimes there’s the like, “Well, I’m interested in it because you’re interested in it.” Or what I like is your enjoyment and your excitement of the thing.

Royce: Yeah, that is definitely a thing and it looks like, I mean, to some extent, OP was engaging in that. But there can be thresholds there. [Courtney agrees] There can be some times where things get too repetitive or too detailed, too much information. I didn’t need to know that aspect of this, particularly when it’s something personal.

Courtney: Yeah, yeah. And I mean, OP didn’t say that their friends said any of these things, but I find that the, you know, calling ace people selfish, which is another– another horrible acephobic stereotype. And that word came out. So selfish, acting like a child, those things kind of also go hand in hand with the very toxic branch of sex positivity, where there is a certain camp of people that think sex positivity does mean be consistently open to sex, a lot of sex, more sex, sex– different types of sex, sex with more people, or just find good sex and have it as often as possible. And if you don’t do that, you’re doing something wrong. And– Because really there’s no other insinuation to stop acting like a child, then get over it and either start having sex yourself or at least engage more with me about this topic, about sex. And it’s just not okay, it’s not okay. So final verdict OP is not the asshole. [hits gavel]

Courtney: This is an older post but still a little relevant to this time of year: [reading] “Am I the asshole for kicking my roommate’s girlfriend out of Friendsgiving? For some backstory, I am a 27-year-old woman. I have two friends that I met in college and became very close to D, a 29-year-old man, and A, a 27-year-old woman. After we graduated I moved to a different state to be with family after receiving some very devastating medical news. But we still kept in touch and they were there for me as much as they could be, stepping in for support whenever my family couldn’t. After I got better, the three of us moved into a house together and D and I got very close, going out on one very awkward date that ended in an uncomfortable kiss, and from then on we decided we’d be better off as best friends. Three years and the discovery that I am asexual/aromantic.

Courtney: Later D got a new girlfriend, S (28 year old woman), and was completely taken with her. A and I suggested inviting her over to meet her and maybe introduce her to some of our friends, since she was new to the city and didn’t know many people. S was incredibly sweet, if a little shy, but A and I liked her and thought she was a good fit for D. We started inviting her to our nights out, movie nights etc. And after she began spending the night more and more, I started buying extra snacks and drinks that D told me she liked to keep at the house to help make her feel comfortable. After a while, D mentioned to us that S was concerned about how close we were and told us several issues she had. Things like how much we hugged, how I wear shorts and crop tops around the house, how we share blankets during movie nights, that we text him too much, etc. A and I were a little annoyed, but they were little issues, so we gave him and S more space and started to wear longer shirts and pants if I knew she was over.

Courtney: “Everything came to a head at the Friendsgiving dinner I hosted. It’s a big deal to me and I send out invites a month in advance to make sure I can get enough food and know everyone’s dietary restrictions, as I cook everything from scratch. After telling me S couldn’t make it, D showed up with her, and when everyone was getting ready to eat, I welcomed her in but told her I wasn’t expecting her and I didn’t know if I had anything for her to eat, but offered to either give her my plate, make something for her or go out and get her something if nothing sounded good. S went off. She accused me of all sorts of things that basically added up to the idea I was trying to steal D from her. I bluntly told her I wasn’t interested in him and she knocked the plates of food off the table, yelling that she knew D and I had dated and I still wanted him, that I was faking my sexuality to play hard to get and that I was two-faced for trying to still be her friend. I could have handled the yelling, but after she wasted the food I had spent all day cooking, I told her she was delusional and to get the hell out, and D took her home. He hasn’t spoken to A or I since, outside of saying that he and S were fighting and I didn’t have to call her crazy. I don’t think I was wrong to kick her out, but I do feel guilty and wonder if I could have handled things differently. Am I the asshole?”

Royce: Knocking plates of food off the table is justification for kicking someone out.

Courtney: Yes.

Royce: I have no issues.

Courtney: Yes, and I mean even just the accusing someone of faking their sexuality is also a good reason to kick someone out. Like there are several things at play here. It’s– It is wild to me. If all of this is completely true. This OP sounds amazing and has done above and beyond what is reasonable and kind to try to accommodate this woman to begin with. Because, like, keeping extra snacks that she likes, that’s really kind. Changing the way you dress because she’s jealous? You don’t have to do that. The fact that you did that shows that you have an abundance of patience.

Courtney: Words like… Delusional is a difficult one for me because it absolutely can and does get used in very ableist ways. Delusional and by extension even crazy is complicated to me because there are definitely some people in, like, disability circles that say we should just wipe that language entirely and never, ever use it. I think it’s a little more vague and complicated and there’s no way I can get into all of the nuances of that here. But like I do kind of think all humans experience some level of delusion at some point or another. Sometimes it is influenced, caused, or exaggerated by actual mental illness.

Royce: Yeah, in this case, S believed in something that was not real. I think that that fits the definition of a delusion. And if you were to track backwards and try to understand why, it most likely comes from insecurity and jealousy.

Courtney: It’s– I– Because that– That one– I think I’d want to know more verbatim what this actual conversation was and who says what. But I definitely– Because the word OP says is, “I told her she was delusional.” Her friend and this woman’s boyfriend said, “You didn’t have to call her crazy.” So I don’t know if the word crazy was actually used or if it was literally, “You’re delusional, get out.” Or what more was said. Because I absolutely believe there could have been a case here where if I knew verbatim what you said, yeah, this could have been a pretty ableist way of getting your valid point across. And maybe it could have been done a little more eloquently. But words that actually are kind of as potentially vague, as crazy and delusional are, sometimes, especially in the heat of emotion, just some of the most easy, versatile, like, quick words that your brain is going to grab on to. Because colloquially that is how it is used.

Royce: Yeah. Talking about these things in this sort of context where we’re stepping back and looking at this post, I think is good just to put that out there for everyone to read, because repetition is often how people learn. And you can start backing away from terms like these. But like in the moment, someone came in to their house and started yelling and like knocking things over potentially, it didn’t say that the plates were broken, but like food was wasted, it’s on the floor, it has to be cleaned up now. Like that’s very aggressive behavior.

Courtney: Not only just wasting food, but also something that OP spent a lot of time on.

Royce: Yeah.

Courtney: Like ruining anything that someone spends a lot of time on, food or not, is also bad. So there is no good layer here. Like very, very clearly, OP is not the asshole for kicking the roommate’s girlfriend out of Friendsgiving, which was the question posed.

Royce: Yeah, and the rest of this, you were mentioning, a lot of times in the middle of a confrontation things that you may not fully mean or believe can be said, but, like at the point where someone is yelling and knocking things over, like you don’t know how far things are going to escalate, that is becoming a safety concern. Like, I am of the opinion that the situation needs to be defused as quickly as possible.

Courtney: Yeah. So is OP the asshole for kicking roommate’s girlfriend out of Friendsgiving? Absolutely not. [hits gavel] So sayeth the gavel.

Royce: [reading] “Am I the asshole for telling my now ex-girlfriend that I think I’m aromantic? So some background on me (29 year old man). I’ve only been in a few relationships and they were all short term. I always feel sort of absent when I’m in a relationship. I very much value my alone time and find a romantic partner kind of suffocating. I care for everyone– I care for everybody I’ve been with deeply and every one of my exes remain my friends. But a couple of weeks into a romantic relationship and I start to feel uncomfortable.

Royce: So I met Allie, a 25-year-old woman, through friends. She was in my country for a short while to visit the mutual friends before returning to her country. We hit it off right away. She’s beautiful, funny and incredibly smart. I really did like her and still like her. A few weeks after we met we began a long-distance relationship with the hope of her coming back to my country in a year’s time when she has to travel again for work. Allie was very open with me on first meeting and told me she is asexual. Of course I’m absolutely fine with that. Although I hadn’t been really aware of the asexual-aromantic spectrum before.

Royce: We dated for eight months and throughout the entire relationship I learned more and more about asexuality and aromanticism, especially as she does research in asexuality and literature. The more I learned, the more I felt, well, understood, I guess. Everything I read about aromanticism hit hard and I started to think if the problem with my previous relationships had been me, and if I’d actually only thought I was interested in romance because that’s what’s expected of people. Allie noticed that I was getting a little more distant as I attempted to sort out how I felt, and I decided it wasn’t fair to keep something so important away from her. I told her that I’d been looking up aromanticism more because of her work and I believe that I’m aromantic.

Royce: “I attempted to explain more but she absolutely went off. Accused me of stringing her along. She said she was in love with me and that I didn’t care about her– and that I didn’t care about that or her feelings. She accused me of taking advantage of her sexually as we had phone sex, and she wouldn’t have done that if she’d known I wasn’t in love with her. I hung up the call immediately after that because it really upset me and I sent her a message saying we can talk when we both calm down. It’s been three weeks since then and she hasn’t spoken to me since, but I’ve been getting messages from her best friend telling me I’m a piece of shit. So am I the asshole?”

Courtney: Yikes. That’s really unfortunate. Uhm, no… OP is definitely not the asshole for that. And, I [sighs] I’d really hope that someone who goes out of their way to learn about asexual and aromantic spectrums, and engage in the literature, would understand that someone being aromantic does not mean they have intentionally been stringing you along. I feel like that’s– That’s the thing a lot of people tend to feel when they hear their partner is either aromantic or even asexual. I’ve heard that as well like, “Oh, you’re asexual, you’re stringing me along,” or you’re leading me on. The feeling of having felt taken advantage of sexually is interesting because I can definitely understand and empathize with ace people in general, women, young people wanting to be quite reserved sexually and save that part of themselves if it exists for very certain specific people. So I can understand feeling hurt when your view of the situation or your expectations prove to be incorrect, but that doesn’t necessarily mean your partner in that situation had malintent or was even doing something wrong necessarily.

Royce: Yeah, that’s something where, if you’re justifying in your head, “I’m going to do this because I believe it will be helpful for the sake of a, like, long-term relationship,” like I’m kind of doing this thing that I don’t particularly want to do, but I’m doing it kind of as investment in the future of the relationship. And then you learn, oh, you learn new things here about your partner. Your partner learns new things about themselves, and you realize, “Well, there might not be a long-term relationship here.” But that’s something that would be very hard to, like, make an agreement on or consent to ahead of time, because you can’t predict what’s going to happen in the future.

Courtney: As people learn more about themselves, yeah.

Royce: It’s not like they could have had a conversation beforehand, and like, agreed to the terms because they were unknowns. The other thing I was going to say, OP did not specify fully where they believed their orientation was. They mention that aromanticism really hit. [Courtney agrees] They did not mention sexuality, at all in this post.

Courtney: Yeah.

Royce: And so I wonder if they are aromantic allosexual, because that is a very specific demographic that is often– often has malintent projected onto them.

Courtney: Yes, and that was exactly what I read and assumed from this. Because it’s like, oh well, she is asexual, so I’ve learned a lot more about that. But hey, I’ve also learned more about aromanticism, and that’s the one that feels correct. So that– that is very, very unfortunate. Because that is a demographic of person who is often accused of leading people along and it doesn’t even necessarily mean that they can’t have a very fulfilling relationship if that is something they want. It does just need an abundance of communication. But I feel like, especially amongst ace and aro people, there needs to be some amount of grace for allowing people to learn more about themselves and explore what that means in the context of a relationship. But I do have to wonder, because when I say I can empathize with feeling hurt, I do see that as her problem. Like, her emotions to manage. Because with the addition of, “Well, I wouldn’t have done this sexual act if I didn’t think that.” Again might be extrapolating, trying to fill in some of the blanks we don’t have, but it sounds like that act of having phone sex was an enormous compromise for this person.

Courtney: It sounded like that is not a thing that they inherently wanted to do at all, perhaps. And that there was a very specific scenario in which they were willing to compromise and do that for the sake of another person or for a relationship. And so once that sort of entry point as, “This is the only way I will do this,” was sort of swept out from under her, then that is very deeply hurtful, but that does kind of make me think perhaps she was compromising too much of herself. Regardless of what the other person’s orientation was. And I do think that a lot of aces do that. Especially in earlier stages, or before you understand yourself, or when you are younger or if you do hope to have a life partner, and you are sort of always told that this is a monumental part of any relationship and it’s so important and it’s the most important thing in the world. And relationships are about compromise.

Courtney: And when you’re having issues and you go online and look for relationship advice, it’s like, “Have sex at least twice a week! And have more sex with your partner, that’ll cure things.” When you’re bombarded with these things your entire life as an ace person, so many of us, whether we’re outright told to sacrifice that part of ourself or we just internalize that this is something we just have to kind of bite the bullet and participate in if we want a fulfilling relationship, I think that’s something we all need to really examine. Because I’ve even been on other Reddit forums talking about asexuality and asking questions and advice for mixed orientation relationships between an ace and an allo person, and I have at times, been really upset at how often the advice defaults to like, “Well, compromise. If you don’t want to have sex, but they want to have a lot of sex, just have a moderate amount of sex.”

Royce: Just take the average.

Courtney: Right. And there’s not going to be any one size fits all. Some aces are going to be much more willing, even happy, to compromise. But I do wonder how much of this is misplaced anger, which is becoming arophobic in its projection. That really the deep-seated emotion is coming from, “I compromised more than I was actually willing to do, and I hinged it all on this one single aspect, and now that it’s gone, what’s left?” So definitely feel empathy for that if that is the case. Definitely encourage all aces to really sit with themselves and explore their own boundaries and their own circumstances. Because if you’re hinging everything on that one person, what if they learn more about themselves over time? People do evolve and develop. And so you really have to make sure that when you are making a compromise it has to be something you’re genuinely very happy with. So I do give the, I suppose, ex-girlfriend in this case, I do gotta say she’s a bit of an asshole for the arophobia. That doesn’t mean I’m not empathetic to the hurt, but the projection is not– not it. So I do think it is interesting, though, because there aren’t a lot of responses on this one. But–

Royce: The post says no a-holes here, but like–

Courtney: No assholes here is the most common response. And, like, the top two comments are.

Royce: There are only like two real comments here. There’s a third one a little further down that’s not helpful, but there’s not enough engagement, I think, for this post to, like, have a good score to it. Like automated tag score.

Courtney: And, yeah, even the top comment is saying that on the basis, like, she feels hurt. She feels like she maybe even regrets doing these things with you. And so I think you can still empathize with that emotion and still be like you did not– You’re still taking something out on someone who does not deserve it, and you are doing it in an arophobic way.

Royce: Yeah, and I can also say that the alternate path here to this story is something that I have experienced. Where you are feeling something that is off and you are concerned about mentioning it because you expect this exact story to play out as it did. And so you just don’t say anything, and you try to figure it out, and then the relationship doesn’t last much longer anyway, because there’s an issue that isn’t getting resolved.

Courtney: Sure. Because, you know, this is kind of the inverse of something we’ve talked about a lot, specifically when we– Well, we’ve talked about it a lot in general, but we especially double, triple down on it when we talk about r/DeadBedrooms. Where, even when ace people tend to compromise or try to compromise the physical aspect of a relationship by doing more than they are strictly inclined to do of their own volition, there are a lot of allosexual people who still aren’t happy with that. And a lot of them don’t understand that what they do not want is just literally the act of sex or more sexual encounters. Sometimes they just really want to feel sexually desired. And if you’re in a relationship with someone who does not feel sexual desire, even if they compromise, even if they are happy to do sexual things with you for your own happiness, for your own sake, sometimes that just isn’t enough and that can lead to a lot of frustration when there isn’t that sort of retrospection.

Courtney: And I very much feel this is kind of– This is like an aromantic version of that. Because OP even says here like, “I do really like her. We did hit it off. She’s beautiful, she’s funny, she’s smart. I do still like her even.” So, whether or not OP decides long term, for their life, if they do want to continue dating people, if they do want a long term partner or not, because of course we know that’s not necessarily precluded if you are aro, it very much does not seem like the the fuck boy kind of stereotype a lot of allosexual aros get where it’s like, “Oh, you just want to sleep around and you have no regard for other people’s feelings,” which is very harmful narrative, negative stereotype. It wasn’t that. Doesn’t sound like it was. So yeah, I– Do you also disagree with the no assholes here? I think–

Royce: Yeah, I agree. I mean–

Courtney: It is– It is arophobic.

Royce: It is. I think that this post is less extreme or more understandable than some other things we’ve read. But yeah, the girlfriend here lashed out in a way that was unfair.

Courtney: Yeah, absolutely. So, OP is not the asshole. [hits gavel] Decided.

Courtney: Okay, this one’s interesting because it got no responses at all, so we will be the definitive end-all, be-all response. [reading] “Am I the asshole for not celebrating Pride Month, as someone technically part of the LGBTQ+ community? To preface, I (18-year-old woman), absolutely do not have anything against the LGBT+ community. I have been an ally even before realizing I count as part of the community as well. I also don’t have anything against Pride, but I’ll go further into my feelings about it in the post. I have a fairly diverse group chat where like 80% of us are some flavor of queer. Recently, several friends have been planning to go to Pride. I was asked if I was going to go and used the excuse of being a boarding student and needing to travel back to my home country. But A, another 18-year-old woman, insisted that in this case, I could go to the Pride in my country and video call them.

Courtney: “Now I don’t care much about going to Pride. I think it’s important and I’m happy that my friends are going. However, it isn’t my thing. I’m an introverted person and social events suck the energy right out of me. I don’t like putting emphasis on my orientation. I just want to exist and be treated as anybody else. I also don’t feel very connected to the community as a whole. I’m – quote – “only” on the aromantic and asexual spectrums, while preferring men. It’s taken me a long time to accept this part of myself and I’m still working on it. Furthermore, while I have faced difficulties regarding my general lack of/very limited attraction and interest in certain activities, I pass very well as your typical straight person, just with some quirks. I’ve found that I’m happiest just vibing and chilling.

Courtney: “I didn’t tell the group chat all this, only that Pride was a bit much for someone like me. I didn’t think much of it, since it’s a known fact that I’m a homebody. Later I DM’d one of the people I’m closer to in the group chat about not wanting to feel like my orientation is the focal point of who I am. They didn’t agree with me, though. Their point was that Pride was and still is a protest, and since I was technically part of the community, I had a responsibility to stand up for fellow queer people and fight for our rights. Especially since my home country still had a way to go. They also said that me not feeling connected to the community as well as wanting to fit in usual society is internalized bigotry. Which might have been them misunderstanding my messages, but I do see their point. They’ve always been quite vocal about this and, honestly, they’re a bit of the activist type.

Courtney: “I’ve never had a problem with this and at times I’m envious of them having the energy to do all of that. But I think it’s unfair that I’m supposed to feel certain ways about certain things, or that I have to be responsible for social change because of parts of my identity. Don’t get me wrong, I have been a vocal ally and I’ve done my fair share of standing up for myself and fellow LGBT+ people. I just want to take things more low-key and live my life. My point of view is that me being on the aroace spectrum is similar to me being Asian. I won’t tolerate racism or bigotry and I stand up when it matters, but I don’t like the expectation of always being outspoken and being an activist. I’d like some different points of views on this. Am I the asshole for not wanting to go to Pride for various reasons?”

Royce: Nope. What you choose to do with your time and your energy is yours. And yeah, this is the whole: by existing as some sort of minority person, you are inherently an activist. And we’ve spoken about how that just doesn’t work.

Courtney: Right. It is interesting, though, because I do sense some elements of, perhaps, not fully coming to terms with all aspects of OP’s own identity. And even, admittedly, OP does say, “It’s taken a long time to accept this and I’m still working on it,” knowing also that OP is 18.

Royce: That’s what I was about to say.

Courtney: Which is quite young.

Royce: There’s hesitation in their language, but yeah, they’re– They’re 18.

Courtney: Quite young. And this is not to say that every aroace person does need to fully resonate with the broader LGBT Community. It does often happen, I’m happy to see it when it does. Not everybody is going to. And that might be fine. But I want to see like these DM’s, because they said, “Me not feeling connected to the Community as well as wanting to fit into usual society…” Now I can see if OP is sending their activist friend a message that is literally saying like, “I just want to fit in and be normal, I don’t want to go to Pride.” I can see why activist friend would be like, “Whoa, whoa, whoa.” [chuckles] So, without knowing exactly who said what and how they said it, I’m kind of inclined to say no assholes here. Because, even though I do not agree with activist friends saying Pride is, was and is, a protest and it’s your duty to go, I disagree with that. Are they an asshole for saying it, though, if they believe it?

Royce: The duty part, yes.

Courtney: Really?

Royce: The “was and is a protest” is debatable, depending on where you’re at in the world and what– what kind of event you’re talking about.

Courtney: Yeah, I agree.

Royce: But the “by existing, it is your duty to do this event that you feel uncomfortable doing”? Like, yes, that is– you are guilt-tripping your friend to live their life in the way that you think they’re supposed to live it. And I say that as someone who has been to a Pride once because you wanted to go. I am not a big community person. I don’t tend to care for large gatherings. Sometimes I’m fine going to them, some– I don’t go out of my way to do so, it’s– I’m always– If I’m at one, it’s because I’m there with someone else who wanted to go to one, sort of a thing. So I get not attending.

Courtney: I will say too, like, talking about Pride being a protest so it’s your duty to go. Pride is my least favorite queer event. Like, as someone who regularly, consistently, went to most, if not all, of the queer bars in town, could pretty regularly, on any given night, go in and know somebody who would just happen to be there, because we were in community with one another. As someone who has been to not only just your standard drag events at a bar but going to like– going to queer pageants and things like that, there is so much queer joy to be had that is all over the place all the time. And– and I love those things so much more than actual Pride. Because when we go to our actual Pride, there are, like, merch stands with things that I’m not interested in myself.

Courtney: Parades can be very physically taxing for someone who is disabled. And a lot of the time, sometimes they might bring in a performer that is a national or internationally known name, but a lot of the day to day events are also just like drag queens that I already know. Some I know personally, some I will just go see their shows throughout the year. And it’s like, I don’t necessarily need to see you in the death heat of the summer when I’m physically exhausted and I’m so much further away from the stage because it’s outside. And so, yeah, I don’t think Pride is always, still a protest. It very often is just a party these days. And sometimes it’s the worst queer party, and there are better ones that are smaller and more intimate and more actual community focused.

Royce: I think one point you’ve brought up in the past when trying to draw a line between existence and activism is: what are the demands? What is being done to move the needle forward? And so, when you have a Pride event that is, like, sponsored by the local city council and funded by local businesses, how is that changing things?

Courtney: I wish it was city council and local businesses! Normally we’re talking about, like, banks. Like bank sponsored events.

Royce: I meant corporations that have a footprint in the metro area.

Courtney: Oh sure.

Royce: Not local shops.

Courtney: No, absolutely not. Yeah, I mean, that’s– that’s the thing. And we could talk all day long about rainbow capitalism. I think everyone listening to our podcast has at least a passing knowledge of what that is and what some of those issues are. But I also think of actual protests that I have attended over the years that were a very dedicated either like, “This business is queerphobic, this is a thing we’re protesting against,” or this– this business has someone on their staff who is known to sexually assault people in the queer community. Like those things. Like there are people who actually get together, protest individual things.

Royce: But in that–

Courtney: Getting involved, talking to the queer community. Like, in Kansas City there– probably still is now and then, but there was a very dedicated period of time where there were some pharmacies in town that weren’t filling hormone prescriptions. And, like, that’s the thing you get up and you protest that. And–

Royce: Yeah. And in those instances there is a– there is a clear violation that is happening and there is a clear end result that is being argued for. But when your end result is some vague notion of visibility for what you mentioned is basically the most well known, widespread sort of queer event in existence? I struggle to see how that is a protest.

Courtney: Yeah. And this, especially if that is like the one and only thing you go to also. Doesn’t mean you don’t belong there. It doesn’t mean you shouldn’t go and have fun. Do not get me wrong, go and have fun. [chuckles] Like, please do. That is not a problem. But it’s also not activism. And I– Maybe we should do a more dedicated episode, because I have developed further my feelings about what I feel like activism is and what it isn’t. And I think by participating just as an attendee, as a passive person showing up at an event, if visibility is what you’re going for and just generally like, “I’m here to show support, I’m putting my stamp of approval by physically being here.” I don’t think that’s unimportant. I do think that that is very important and that is a good thing. I just do not think that it is actually political activism.

Courtney: And when it comes to things more broadly, like online people doing, like, online education, sometimes they’ll play the game of whether or not that is activism. And some people will say, “Yes, this is activism,” because they’ll try to collect activism points, and some people will be like, “Well, I’m not an activist,” but they’ll use that to sort of try to shirk accountability if they, you know, say something harmful. I think you can still be a cultural worker. That is– That is sort of the phrase I’ve adopted for people who are doing visibility and education and important work. Because I think what I’ve learned is a hot button issue for some people. If you critique and say, but is that really activism? Some people feel really hurt by that. Because if you question if something’s activism or not, they’ll be like, “But what I’m doing is important, and you’re delegitimizing what I’m doing by saying it’s not activism.”

Royce: There are lots of important things that are not activism.

Courtney: There are lots of important things that are not activism, exactly. So, yeah, OP, you are not the asshole. You don’t have to go to Pride this year. If you never want to go to Pride, you don’t have to. And if you’re still working on accepting these parts of yourself, that’s also okay.

Courtney: But I think that is going to do it for today’s episode. So that is going to bring us to our featured MarketplACE vendor of the week: WytchCraftShop. That’s ‘witch’ with a Y. WytchCraftShop is ace owned and they sell crystals, crystal jewelry, and witchy spell bottles. Including Pride spell bottles made of crystal chips for all of our witchy listeners out there. There are some very cool things. Even if you’re not of the witchy variety, there may be some things here for you. There are, for example, rollerball perfumes, even a bit of jewelry here and there. Of course, there are crystals galore.

Courtney: I actually recently– Even though I am often accused of being a witch, I don’t personally identify. Although I did recently purchase a return to sender protection bottle which is meant to protect one from negative energies being sent your way and will return them to their sender with a little added kick, allegedly. And so I got that for a friend of mine who could really use some of that energy. As always, links to find this wonderful shop are going to be in our show notes, which I have recently been informed does not mean directly on the podcast platform. You can find that on our website. Or if you’re listening to us on YouTube, in the description. As always, thank you all so much for being here and we will talk to you all next week. Goodbye! Don’t be an asshole.