I Saw the TV glow is very Trans and more than a little Ace

Transcript Transcribed by Laura M.

Courtney: Hello everyone and welcome back. My name is Courtney. I am here with my spouse, Royce, and together we are The Ace Couple. And I’m really excited to talk about a movie that we watched recently. You may have heard of it, it is called I Saw the TV Glow. Going into it as with most media, I always try to go in with as little information as possible, so when I went in to watch it, all I knew was that it is very queer. Just broadly queer. I refrained from seeing any sort of reviews or explicit commentary on it. And I was told it was very, very good. And, oh boy, was it ever? I loved it. In fact, I just pulled up before recording this– I just wanted to watch, like, another scene again so I could have it really fresh in my memory. And I was crying again, not even seeing the full movie or the context around it. It’s beautiful. It’s such a fascinating movie. And, as of now, if you do look up a lot of commentary on it, the most common sort of queer lens that you’ll see that analysis through is the trans experience, which makes perfect sense to me. That is very clearly like the predominant theme for me. But I do actually think it is worth talking about some ace vibes, some potential ace themes alongside the trans ones. So that’s what we’re gonna do today.

Royce: So I had not heard of this movie at all until you had brought it up, which doesn’t surprise me. I’m usually not very aware of what is going on around, you know, the general media scene. I was about to say Hollywood, but the gap is broader than that. But this wasn’t a huge movie anyway, like, budget-wise or expectation-wise. It is the second production from writer and director Jane Schoenbrun, who three years ago came out with We’re All Going to the World’s Fair and is expecting a future movie titled Public Access Afterworld. Now, at least these first two movies are both considered coming-of-age psychological horror dramas, and while the plot and characters are not connected thematically, they seem to have the connection of young people trying to deal with personal trauma or issues by leaning heavy into some form of fantasy.

Courtney: Some form of, yeah, media as well. Because we– We did love this movie so much that we did go back and watch We’re All Going to the World’s Fair. And I have to say I don’t think I liked it as much as I Saw the TV Glow, but I definitely saw the parallels. And that one dealt a lot more with online media like YouTube videos, vlogging, that kind of a thing, whereas I Saw the TV Glow was very like 90s TV nostalgia, tube TV. And it is really funny because going in just knowing this is very queer and nothing else but that, very early on I made a joke, because I didn’t see these themes emerging yet, it was early enough. It was showing a young– The protagonist’s name is Owen in I Saw the TV Glow. And I am going to use the name Owen most of the time and he/him pronouns.

Courtney: Some people who I’ve seen review this after going back and watching, after seeing the movie, will just call Owen either by another name or even use she/her pronouns or they/them, and I get why. And I will go in a little more about those themes. But the– the basic psychological horror element of this is like an egg who never hatches. The egg that never cracked. The closeted trans person who never got to live as their true self. So we have name Owen in the real world for the remainder of his life, he is called Owen and he goes by he/him pronouns. That is probably not internally how he identifies, but that’s all pushed way to the side throughout a majority of his life. But we see him as a young child in a gym class and I made the joke– Because it was like every elementary school kid, like from the 90s, like, favorite day in gym class where they bring out, like, that big parachute. Is that the best word for it, parachute?

Royce: Yeah, probably.

Courtney: And I don’t even know if gym classes still do that or how widespread it was, but I think we were definitely like the right age group to also watch this, [chuckles] because there were just so many things that were so reminiscent of, like, our own childhoods and coming of age. But this, this big like gym parachute day. The one at my school was just like rainbow colors, but this one was like the colors of the trans flag, like white, blue, pink, but then also purple. And so just knowing this is very queer and seeing that, I was like– that’s not the color of those parachutes normally are, so that has to have a reason. So I just very jokingly was like, “Owen is trans and ace confirmed.” [laughs] Because it’s the ace flag plus purple.

Royce: And that was very early in the movie.

Courtney: It was so early in the movie that I thought that was a joke. But then the movie went on and I was like, “Oh, wait a minute. Did I call it? Did I pick up on the very subtle imagery?” And there is so much imagery in this movie. It’s weird. There’s– there’s an element of surrealism. There are so many metaphors and parallels and then just weird things that you could speculate all day about what it actually means, and I’m sure there was a reason why it was there. But some of it’s very like– you got to have detective work to try to figure out, like why did they decide to do this? It’s very artistic in a way that a lot of mainstream movies are not, and I really appreciated that.

Royce: So the opening scenes flip between a couple of timelines just showing an older Owen kind of reminiscing about this television show called The Pink Opaque, and then we see Owen as a maybe middle schooler, I think? Young high school freshman, somewhere in that age.

Courtney: Yeah.

Royce: Meeting a girl named Maddy, who introduces him to the show.

Courtney: And The Pink Opaque is like very ‘Buffy the Vampire’ coded.

Royce: It is. As someone who’s never really watched Buffy that was my immediate thought. But geared for a younger audience. It was also– It was almost like Buffy meets Super Sentai, like Power Rangers sort of things, where some of the way that it was shown visually was very, like, low budget.

Courtney: Yeah, I was almost– I didn’t expect you to reach for that, because I was almost going to say like Buffy the Vampire Slayer meets, like, Goosebumps.

Royce: Yeah, okay.

Courtney: It is like– it’s– It’s pretty corny imagery a lot of the time.But there were just like the– the way the font is on the title, the way it’s discussed, some of the things I– And maybe, maybe it is just like the queer coming of age during this period of time, because so many of my, like, high school friend group, who we were mostly all very queer but not actually out at the time, so many of us were obsessed with Buffy the Vampire Slayer and talked about it all the time. And– And I know so many people who will use that as a frame of reference. Like that was part of what I would consider to be my queer journey and coming to understand myself was that TV show. So just the way that this was being framed, I was like– I think I asked you at one point, I was like, “Is this supposed to be Buffy the Vampire Slayer?”

Royce: Yeah, probably, and we confirmed that later, that everyone else was like, “Oh yeah, definitely.” [Courtney laughs] But this show becomes a bonding point for these two people who are both isolated in their own lives, their own friend groups for a variety of reasons. Explains all of the tropes to Owen, who has never seen a show like this before. It’s a very, you know, monster of the week sort of syndication where the strings of this long-running multi-season series are being manipulated by some, you know, far off big bad, who’s very rarely shown. But she gets into, like, very deep, pulling him into the lore of the world and why this isn’t a show for kids. There are all these dark horror elements beneath it and drawing all the red strings to connect all of the things.

Courtney: And that was interesting too, because Maddy ends up being queer and being a lot more open and nonchalant about it. She at one point very specifically says, like, “I like girls.” And I do think that’s also very fascinating and reminiscent of my experience. A lot of other queer people I know from this– like, growing up in this period of time, who, like, found each other and became friends before coming out. And there’s a thing about that. I don’t know what it is, but queer people do find each other, even early in life and even before they come out. And so it was interesting to see the show being sort of the conduit for bringing them together.

Courtney: But in these earlier periods we see just some elements that Owen does not feel particularly safe at home. He definitely seems to have some sort of fear of his father, but the way we see that is a lot of, like, reluctance to ask for the things that he really wants and some very cutting comments now and then. Like when Owen asks if he can go to his friend’s house or if he could even just stay up late to watch The Pink Opaque, the response from his father is just like, “Isn’t that a show for girls?” And so you get that Owen starts to feel sort of ashamed for what his interests are and what he wants to do and who he wants to be, because of little digs like that that we see from his father.

Courtney: So what Owen ends up doing to try to watch this show is he lies to his parents asking if he can have a sleepover at the house of a friend of his, and instead of going to that friend’s house he goes to Maddy’s house to watch the show. And at the time Maddy’s watching it every week with a friend of hers as well, so it’s sort of the three of them watching this show and then he has to kind of hide out in Maddy’s basement for the entire night because his parents aren’t expecting him home. But we also sort of see in these moments that Maddy is also living in a very abusive household and she starts to say some things about, you know, fantasizing about running away, getting out of this town, getting out of this house. And then just some comments that are just like asking Owen, like, “Do you ever feel like The Pink Opaque feels more real than real life?” And just sort of showing that not only is this their favorite show, but this is escapism from their very difficult lives.

Courtney: And despite coming over to Maddy’s house a couple of times to watch the show and sneaking out in this way, that’s not sustainable long term. So what kind of ends up happening is that Maddy records the episodes on a VHS tape and, like, leaves them for Owen and they sort of communicate this way at a distance for a while. And this was sort of the first scene, aside from the really funny, like, “Oh, trans and ace because of the parachute.” This was the first like, oh, maybe there is something a little ace here.

Courtney: Owen goes to find Maddy on, like the bleachers outside of a school after they haven’t been talking directly for a while. They’ve been passing notes and tapes and whatnot. And Owen just asks her if she and Amanda still watch The Pink Opaque together every week. And Maddy gets very upset and says that she and Amanda are no longer friends.

Courtney: Amanda apparently spread a nasty rumor around the school that Maddy tried to touch her tit, which she says is absolutely not true, and then joined the cheerleading squad. So it very much seemed like she learned that Maddy was gay and intentionally tried to distance herself from her in order to fit in. And that’s when Owen kind of asks, “Oh well, can– can I come over again? I– I’ve been watching the tapes but I really want to see it on air again.” And that’s when Maddy says, “I like girls. You know that, right? I’m not into boys.” And Owen’s like, “Yeah, yeah, no, that’s fine, I didn’t mean anything by that.” And she just sort of pries a little bit and says, “What about you? Do you like girls?” And Owen just, like, stammers. He’s very caught off guard by this and he’s like, “I don’t know,” and she’s like, “Boys?” And his response was, “I think I like TV shows.” And oh my god, I love it. Do you like girls or boys? I like TV shows.

Courtney: But when trying to press on further and articulate what he’s feeling, he says: “When I think about that stuff, it feels like someone took a shovel and dug out all of my insides. And I know there’s nothing there, but I’m still too nervous to open myself up and check. I know there’s something wrong with me. My parents know that too, even if they don’t say anything.” And I do think there are a lot of aces and aros who can relate to that very heavily, because we’re always sort of told there’s this specific type of attraction, this specific type of emotion that you’re supposed to feel – probably toward the opposite gender, but at the very least towards some gender – and that’s a very common sentiment. Especially at a younger age, especially before finding labels that feel right. Or if you never find labels that feel right, to say, “I know there’s something wrong with me,” or there’s nothing there, what’s supposed to be there is empty.

Courtney: And Maddy does respond to that by referencing one of the two women who are the hero of the show and the members of The Pink Opaque or– I guess not members of The Pink Opaque. I think Maddy, at one point very specifically, is like, “No, they are The Pink Opaque.” So the two women who are The Pink Opaque, one of whom is Isabel, and Maddy says, “Maybe you’re like Isabel, afraid of what’s inside you.” And so I think, with just that scene in isolation and the fact that the trans themes are so heavy, there could be some amount of deniability that this is really just someone who doesn’t even want to explore sexuality before coming to understand their gender identity, which could be true. But I think it’s very interesting that the way it’s phrased is, “I know there is nothing in there.” In response to “Who do you like?” Like, there is nothing there. When you ask me who I like, there is not an answer. It is empty. I know that, but even knowing that, I’m still too afraid to look inside. I think that’s very interesting because it seems– Owen’s a very unsure character. Owen stammers a lot. Owen doesn’t say very much a lot of the time.

Royce: You haven’t mentioned neurodivergence yet.

Courtney: Owen is very neurodivergent.

Royce: Absolutely. So, late– Uh, near the end of the movie there’s even a scene where some co-workers are just kind of casually being shitty to Owen, and they specifically say like, “Why won’t you look at me? Why won’t you ever make eye contact?”

Courtney: Oh yeah. I’m absolutely going to talk more at length about that scene too. Because, oh…

Royce: Just to clarify some of the ways that Owen feels isolated and often acts around other people, including his family, there’s also some neurodivergence at play there.

Courtney: Mm-mm. And I don’t know. I just think it’s kind of interesting that he doesn’t say, like, “I don’t know who I like, I don’t know the answer to that.” He’s like, “TV shows? There’s nothing there. But even knowing that there’s nothing there, I’m afraid to look further.” So he’s not saying like there’s something there but I’m afraid to look at it. He’s saying there’s nothing there and I’m afraid to look at it.

Courtney: And in a show that seems so– Or in a movie that seems so very carefully thought out down to very specific details of imagery, I think that that’s very meaningful.

Courtney: And I haven’t seen this yet. I have seen a couple of people who will say like, “Yeah, Owen does seem very ace, or ace and/or aro.” I’ve even seen a couple of articles that just sort of mention, “Yeah, Owen is asexual,” and don’t go into any details about why.

Courtney: So we’re certainly not the only people who felt this from this character. And even though I haven’t seen these arguments yet, I’ve seen similar arguments in other contexts. So I do just sort of want to head off any arguments people might have. Since the trans theme is the main element of horror throughout this movie, I don’t want anybody to use that as an excuse to minimize the fact that he could also be acespec. Because I know in situations of gender identity there are definitely trans people who identify as ace, where other people will be like, “You’re not asexual, you just haven’t come to terms with your gender identity. Once you do that, you’ll– you’ll find your real sexuality.” And that’s the thing that real world people hear. Those are kind of arguments I’ve heard pertaining to other types of media. But there are trans people who identified as ace before and after transitioning. We know trans people who came to the ace identity only after transitioning.

Courtney: And so there is certainly a lot that is up for interpretation in this movie, because they don’t use a lot of words. They use plots and imagery and metaphor to tell this story. So even though we’re saying, for instance, like this is a very trans film, Owen is an egg, Owen has not come out, but Owen is definitely not cisgender, they don’t say any of those words. They never say the word trans. It’s all through little subtle clues. And you start to see– It’s almost an unreliable narrator kind of a situation. Because you see some scenes from one perspective like Owen just coming and watching the TV show and crashing on the floor and then going home, but then later on in the movie there will be like, “Are you sure that’s all that happened?” And then you’ll have like a flashback to those times where you see so much more was happening than just watching the TV show together.

Royce: Yeah, particularly some of the later scenes have mixtures of memories of the TV show itself and experiences during that time period sort of melding together.

Courtney: Yes. And we see when Owen, now older, as an older teenager or young adult, starts to think back to those times, think back to watching the show, there are little flashes of, oh, they aren’t just watching the show. Owen is, you know, coming out of the bathroom wearing a dress. And Owen and Maddy are going out at night and walking on like the football field at the high school with Owen wearing a dress, and paralleling scenes that we’ve seen in a very fictionalized way in the TV show. So, very, very unreliable narrator. Very– You’ll get a limited view of what’s happening before you start to get, “Oh, wait a minute, things were not what we were told, things were not always what they seemed.” And it’s very interesting because not only is that the experience we have as viewers, but that’s very clearly the experience Owen has of trying to suppress this part of himself, this part of his identity, this part of his life. This part of experimentation with a safe friend who’s, you know, helping him to explore this.

Courtney: And that’s a lot of the reason why I have seen some reviewers insist on calling Owen Isabel after establishing what the theme of the movie is, and using she/her pronouns. Because Isabel is the character in the TV show, the one of The Pink Opaque, the one that you start to see parallels between Isabel and Owen, and then you start to wonder how much of this was the TV show character and how much of this is Owen’s true self, which is all very understandable and I totally get that. But there’s so much really beautiful gray area, very delicious gray area. And sometimes I don’t like gray area because sometimes gray area feels like a piece of media was too afraid to go there. Or we’ve even seen– Like going back to Hasbin Hotel saying like, “Oh, we’re not going to say what Alastor’s romantic orientation is or is not, because we want the shippers to be able to have their fun. And he is ace, but we’re not gonna say anything else because, you know, let them have their fun.” That feels like a cop out. That feels like you’re leaving gray area for fan service or for fear of committing.

Courtney: Whereas this genre, this movie, all the rich detail that we’re getting and the way and the order it’s being presented to us is actually very enriching. It’s purposefully gray area. So I think an interpretation that Owen is a binary trans woman who just has not come out is a very fair interpretation, since he never says that, since the word trans is not even uttered. There’s so much other gray area that you could interpret it as, because he never let himself go there, he never let himself become comfortable in his identity. So had he gone down that road where he felt safe enough to do that, maybe he’s non-binary, maybe he’s agender, maybe he’s gender fluid. We don’t know.

Courtney: And honestly, that is part of the horror. This is queer horror. You mentioned it as a psychological horror and I also thought very clearly psychological horror. But it also kind of occurred to me that, in a way, when you think about transitioning and genderqueerness and the terror that can come from potentially living in a body that feels wrong for your entire life and never coming out and living as your authentic self, it is sort of like a type of body horror. It is absolutely a type of body horror. And gender can be used as body horror. But this is a body horror that isn’t excessively gory. Like we normally think body horror, and you think blood, you think guts, you think–

Royce: Yeah.

Courtney: – ripping fingernails off torture.

Royce: For general things, yeah, but body horror has a lot to it. In a past episode we talked about pregnancy as an aspect of body horror.

Courtney: Yes.

Royce: There are things about really just anything that could change your form in some way that you are uncomfortable with or manifest changes in your body that you don’t want, it could be some form of body horror. But thinking about queer horror or trans horror as a definitive horror genre is interesting because we may see that get more well defined in the near future. Much how now there’s a distinct subgenre of Black horror that I have seen some more modern movies labeled as, that tends to– I think most of the movies that I’ve seen have focused specifically on African American history and the horror behind some of the aspects of slavery or segregation or racism in America, as opposed to racial issues worldwide.

Courtney: Which, from the movies I’ve seen or we’ve seen, I think are some of the best horror films to come out within the last decade. Because I’m thinking of, like, Get Out.

Royce: Yeah, Get Out I think is seen as, like, the big movie that caused, like, a big modern resurgence. Apparently there are a variety of Black horror films going back quite a ways, but a lot of Jordan Peele media falls into that. We’ve seen–

Courtney: Well, it got very popular so it probably did open the door for a lot of lesser known creators to get deals within this genre.

Royce: Yeah.

Courtney: Based on comping it.

Royce: A couple of TV series we watched were Them and Changeling.

Courtney: Mm-mm. I really liked Them, but that was– that was like two different seasons with different stories and I liked them both.

Royce: Yeah, they were very– They were generational in nature but they were two succinct stories. But anyway, horror series/show classification aside, getting back to the main plot. After a decent period of time of Owen and Maddy discussing the show and sharing the VHSs back and forth, Maddy explains that she’s going to run away from home and asks Owen to come with her. And Owen panics at the last moment and goes home instead. And Maddy just disappears, goes missing. And the TV show that they were watching together suddenly gets canceled. And after that, some time passes, as Owen is just kind of getting used to their new life. And it picks back up, with him re-watching the final episode, which gives us, I think, maybe our first big view of the big bad of the series, Mr. Melancholy?.

Courtney: Mr. Melancholy, yes.

Royce: The figure had been mentioned before, but I think this is the most prominent view of this character.

Courtney: Yeah, well, he always seemed like, kind of The Man In The Moon. Like you might see this evil face in the moon off in the distance, and so you sort of know he’s always looking at you. But we do finally see him, like, up close and personal. And Mr Melancholy very much has strong parallels in the – quote – ‘real world’. There’s always a question of what is real, how much is the show and how much of this is escapism and gender exploration. But there are strong parallels to Owen’s dad. Because there are times where you might have Owen’s dad just sitting in a dark living room at night and the glow from the TV is like shining on his face in a way that’s sort of reminiscent of this face in the moon that is Mr Melancholy. And I mean obviously even the name Mr Melancholy is pretty on the nose.

Royce: But anyway, the story ends up picking back up with a number of years later. Owen is working a job and Maddy just suddenly reappears and finds Owen and starts talking to him. And she claims to have spent this period of time where she has been away in the TV show as like an alternate dimension, alternate reality. She claims that after a while of having left home and trying to make it on her own, she felt this need to bury herself alive and in doing so, woke up in the body of Tara, the character in the TV show. And upon realizing that that was her true reality, that in the scenes in the finale of the TV show, Mr Melancholy had basically drugged the two characters of The Pink Opaque and put them into this dreamlike state, which is symbolized as this closed world inside of a snow globe where we see both Maddy and Owen. Maddy is trying to explain to Owen in this world that she has basically come back to wake him up and that what he needs to do now is bury himself alive to wake up in TV show world.

Courtney: Um, and I’m crying just thinking about it again. [laughs] It’s very cool and it’s very weird. The thing is– because when you– when you see this, like, last episode of this show before it was canceled it is like the very cheesy, like Man In The Moon is now in the room with you and he has these henchmen, he has these two like crescent moon looking goons.

Royce: This is what I was mentioning is this, like– It’s interesting that you call attention to Goosebumps, because I didn’t think about that, but I was originally thinking Buffy/Super Sentai, because Mr Melancholy in person is a human with a giant moon head, and Mr Melancholy’s two henchmen are people with, like, stylized crescent moon heads.

Courtney: Yes, with– with like, a beard and hair that are all just swooped to one side. Yes, it’s very interesting, it’s very goofy. And it seems really weird if you don’t think deeply about what the real world implication could mean. And there are still a few, I think, very valid interpretations of this. But there is a scene where these hench people are like, yeah, drugging them, feeding them some sort of poison, like strapped down to a chair and Mr Melancholy one of the last things he even says is like, “You won’t remember anything, you won’t remember your real self or your life, and you won’t even remember that you’re dying.”

Royce: There was that aspect of it I forgot, actually. The way that it’s proposed in the final episode of the TV show and as Maddy is explaining this, gives the impression that what we see as the real world, their entire lives, are happening in those minutes as they’re running out of air, essentially.

Courtney: Mm-mm. Which, when you think of the fundamental horror of this being living your life miserable and inauthentically, like, yeah it is– you are living out the remainder of your life but you are slowly dying as you’re doing it. You’re not truly living, you are dying. And it’s very profound. And there are a lot of different takes I think you can make from, like what does it mean to bury yourself alive? Is this– is this killing off a part of yourself or your old self? And is that– Is that a bad thing? Is it a good thing? Is it a complicated thing? There are so many interpretations that can be taken from that, but it demands that you think about it. If you try to watch this without any sort of personal experience or analysis or trying to understand and wrap your head around the parallels, I can imagine some people might come away from this being like that’s weird and I don’t understand it. But there’s– there’s a lot there. And I think the, like I said, I think the gray area actually enriches this experience.

Courtney: And now here’s my interpretation. I’m not the only one who saw Mr Melancholy as a parallel for Owen’s dad. And since the most prominent line that really sticks in the memory after watching the whole movie from his dad is like, “Isn’t that a show for girls?” If that is the main person and societal structure that is repressing Owen’s exploration of gender identity, I think the hench people could be a parallel for repressing sexual orientation exploration. Because I thought it was very obvious and apparent that Owen’s dad was Mr Melancholy. And I kind of wondered like, well, who are the henchmen then? And there are always two henchmen and the most clear real world example I can think of were actually, like, Owen’s manager at the movie theater after Maddy leaves – and he grows up and he’s on his own and he’s working a job – and another co-worker who’s sort of just there and laughing along. Because that’s the most prominent scene, I think – unless I’m forgetting something – of like two men in the real world who are antagonizing Owen.

Courtney: And that all comes to a head after Owen walks into the manager’s office at this theater he works at, and this manager is like hooking up with a woman and he just walks in on them. And Owen’s really shocked, shuts the door, immediately yells, “Sorry! Sorry!” And then it cuts to them like on break, sitting out back, and this guy and another employer just like laughing and poking at Owen, and just saying like, “Hey, Owen, did you like what you saw earlier?” And he’s like, “Yeah, me and Erica– And if you want, I can put in a good word with Erica for you. And oh, she likes you. It is so on for you, brother, come on.” And sort of like just ribbing Owen.

Courtney: And that’s when, what you mentioned earlier, Royce, when he’s like, “Why don’t you look at me, just make eye contact with me, seriously.” Because Owen’s head is down this whole time where he’s like, “Hey, did you like seeing–? Did you like walking in on me and Erica? Do you want to sleep with Erica? We can make that happen. You could totally sleep with Erica.” And Owen is just like eyes down, not engaging, and then that becomes a problem. And there are these two men right there laughing at him as they are doing that. And that seems so much more on the nose for someone who does not experience sexual attraction, does not want to participate in this aspect of society, and other people around him sensing that and mocking him for it. Which absolutely does happen to a lot of ace people before, during, and after they come out, depending on their own respective experiences.

Courtney: And it occurred to me because then we also later see just a goofy one off scene that’s very sort of chilling. It’s at night, Owen steps out of the house and there are just two men on the sidewalk staring at his house menacingly. And we don’t really see them again. He doesn’t engage with them. It just– the camera just sort of lingers on these two just staring at him. And that was in close enough proximity to these two co-workers ribbing him, and such a clear parallel of seeing these two standing side by side based on previously seeing the hench people standing side by side, that I thought it could be very interesting if Mr Melancholy is sort of the metaphor for repressing gender and the henchmen are the metaphor for repressing sexuality. It makes sense that they would be working together against Isabel and/or Owen. And that the hench people and Mr Melancholy are clearly just the fictionalized versions of these real world structures like cis- allo- and amato- normativities.

Courtney: And they also have parallels to the real life, everyday people that reinforce these ideas upon Owen and make it feel unsafe for him to break free of them and be a fully realized authentic self. And I’m glad that they did have that scene. Because that scene was what sort of solidified that idea of what the henchmen mean and how and why they work together with Mr Melancholy. Because, for as much as I felt in the moment that bleacher scene, where Owen was saying, “I think I like TV shows not boys or girls, but TV shows.” I feel like, given the way the rest of the movie played out and the way it ended and the way Maddy’s response is, “Well, maybe you’re just like Isabel, maybe you’re just afraid of what’s inside of you,” could almost imply like there is something in there you’re just afraid of it, that could almost feel like contradictory. Like cutting off that idea of a lack of a sexuality.

Courtney: But I think by showing another example of Owen being antagonized by people for not acting in a stereotypically sexual way, I think reinforced that enough that I’m very comfortable in my interpretation that Owen is ace too. And of course Owen does not end up going with Maddy, or doing what Maddy said to do, and so he continues to live his life in this real world as Owen. The movie theater he was working at closed down and he says his boss went with him or moved him to, I don’t know, some sort of like arcade, birthday party spot for kids. Vaguely Chuck E. Cheese-esque. Would have been Gigglebees for me. [laughs]

Royce: Another very era appropriate sort of job location.

Courtney: And it is worth noting as well, because I don’t think we’ve mentioned this, but there are times where there is a fourth wall break that feels off in a way that is very clearly supposed to feel off. Like the first time Owen just looks dead at the camera and starts verbally narrating what happened. It’s like, “Oh, hold on!” [laughs] Excuse me?

Royce: What kind of movie are we watching? Speaking of weird, unexpected fourth wall breaks, did you realize that Owen’s oppressive, unsupportive father was played by Fred Durst, the front man of Limp Bizkit?

Courtney: I did not notice that. I did not notice that at all. [laughs] That’s a fun fact. Well, there were also Buffy the Vampire Slayer cameos, weren’t there?

Royce: That sounds right. I don’t remember who exactly. Yeah, Amber Benson makes a short appearance.

Courtney: Well, and thinking to the TV show also now, I don’t even think this occurred to me at the time. Because for as much as it was obvious, like right off the bat, to me, that this seems like a Buffy the Vampire Slayer insert, it didn’t occur to me that the end of the show was essentially the deaths of Tara and Isabel. And so is the burying yourself alive, instead of killing off your own self to– your old self to live your new authentic–? Is it literally just the bury your gays trope? Is it literally just– Well, I– This was my escapism, this is what felt real and authentic to me. And then they very unceremoniously killed off these characters I was identifying with. And now I’m disillusioned and my bit of escapism is gone. So now what do I have?

Courtney: There’s so many interpretations! And they’re probably all true!

Courtney: But it is very interesting too because when it comes to the narration, sometimes Owen stares right into the camera and starts talking. And it feels weird and it feels off. And that’s very much– Because there’s always kind of a question like do you ever feel like you’re living in a TV show? Or do you feel like The Pink Opaque is more real than real life? And if that’s more real than real life, then what is this real life? And is this just the TV show? So there’s always that ever present question and the weird fourth wall breaks are part of that.

Courtney: But sometimes Owen is narrating, and it started earlier on where if there was narration it was like in his head, and he wasn’t literally talking at the screen. And so sometimes it waffles back and forth between in his head narration to, “I’m just staring at the screen now.” And it’s a very weird effect that I think works.

Courtney: But Owen is shown, like, throwing out his old tube TV, which are just so heavy. [laughs] But it shows him struggling to carry it out to the curb as he has like narration in his head, talking about how his father died and he decided to continue living in his childhood home that he inherited from his parents. And he talks about how life goes by so fast. Years feel like seconds. Which again going back to that, “You won’t even remember you’re dying,” and the entire life flashing before their eyes during that scene, that’s another reinforcement of that. And he says, like, “But I just try not to think too hard about it.” And then it shows the next scene of him getting a delivery of a new flat screen television. And as he goes out to pick it up, he looks dead at the screen and starts talking again. So there’s that transition between narration types.

Courtney: And this is after he says, “It was time for me to become a man, a real adult, a productive member of society.” Which, what does that mean in this situation? Because it doesn’t mean he’s getting a job, he already has a job. It doesn’t mean he’s literally an adult, he’s already an adult. He goes on to clarify by looking dead at the screen, and says, “I even got a family of my own. I love them more than anything.” And he does not sound happy. He sounds like a husk of a man. It is very unconvincing as he says this. Nearly monotone. With maybe even a, like, an emotional hitch in the voice that he’s trying to, like, suppress as he says it. And I didn’t even notice this, because I was trying to pay attention to his mannerisms and the way he was delivering that line, but you pointed out how interesting the flat screen that he had delivered was.

Royce: Oh yeah, I called attention to the branding because it was an LG TV and their motto is Life Is Good, and that was in stark contrast to the way this narration was being given.

Courtney: So clever. Because, yes, the entire shot. You see this big box sitting on the porch. He’s leaning over preparing to pick it up. You see the words Life Is Good on this box, as he’s very solemnly saying, “I got a family of my own. I love them more than anything.” It’s just like, “Life is good!” It was beautiful and devastating. So I guess the last thing to talk about is just that final scene, which can just mean so many things. Because he’s working at his job, there’s a kid’s birthday party, all the employees are coming out and singing their cheesy happy birthday song, and Owen just like snaps and screams. And is screaming for help and for his mom. And it’s very well acted. The actor playing Owen did a killer job the entire movie. And it was really fascinating because he’s also in Detective Pikachu and the D&D movie [laughs] which we loved the D&D movie.

Royce: I guess, before you get into that final scene, there is one thing that we skipped over. There is one night in the mix of all of this where Owen pulls up a streaming service and finds old episodes of The Pink Opaque and tries to watch them. And it is a completely different show. I– having looked this up after the fact, it wasn’t based around a show that I was familiar with. Apparently, there was an older show, I think it was called The Adventures of Pete & Pete, and the show that Owen is now watching is heavily, heavily inspired by that, to the point where I think they pulled in some actors to cameo from that show as well.

Courtney: Oh…

Royce: And so we’ve gone from a Buffy-esque show to a completely different show being portrayed, due to the passage of time and reflection.

Courtney: Passage of time, reflection, dissociation from the source material for sure. Because, yeah, he’s even, like, watching it in a totally different way. It’s not on VHS tapes, it’s not on cable television, it’s on like a streaming site, it’s on, like, a Netflix. And the vibe is so different. I think even the color reflecting from the TV screen is less vibrant. Because so often we see this, like, pink or purple hue coming off of the TV as we see a young Owen, just like, enraptured with what he’s watching, which is very interesting. And yeah, the characters seem, like, so much younger than Tara and Isabel were. The monsters already seemed cheesy to start with, but they’re, like, even cheesier and even cornier and even more like little kiddie.

Courtney: And I think some people might just at a surface level, take that to be like nostalgia or things that didn’t age well. Like when you were a kid this was the best thing ever, but going back as an adult it’s really not actually that great. But I think, given all the other themes that are present, it’s a lot more meaningful to interpret that as severing your connection to a very real and important part of yourself. But since Owen is very clearly miserable and just absolutely cracks at work and is screaming, and time kind of stands still like everyone around him just, like, stops moving as he’s having this absolute meltdown. And he runs into the bathroom just hyperventilating, and takes, like– I don’t know, is it like a box cutter or something?

Royce: Yeah, it was a utility knife.

Courtney: And just like cuts open his sternum as he’s on the floor of the bathroom just struggling to breathe. And that was very interesting if you think about the previous lines of, like, being afraid to look at what’s inside of you. And he stands up in front of the mirror and pulls his chest cavity open and there’s like– It’s like TV in there. Like he does look inside of himself and it’s TV. [chuckles] Which is very fascinating, because when it’s like, “Oh, do you like boys or girls? I think I like TV shows.” And when you asked me that there’s nothing there except TV shows.

Royce: Wasn’t it specifically a broadcast of The Pink Opaque?

Courtney: Oh, I’m sure it was. It wasn’t– It seemed kind of fuzzy, like you hear some things, you see, like, flashes of a screen, but it’s not a super clear imagery. It’s just sort of like the glow of the TV coming out that we’ve seen in so many other ways and contexts throughout the movie. And then he, like, closes his chest back up and goes back to work and just, like, apologizes to everyone for having a time. And that’s how it ends. It’s a tragedy! It is not only a horror, it is a tragedy. But it is so good. And I think the director did such a masterful job of keeping things vague and complex in a way that is meaningful. Because I’ve also seen some things that seem like you were just trying to be complex for the sake of being complex. Like it is there a type of shallow complexity you see in mainstream media sometime. Like, they’re trying to be really complex, but they’re really not saying that much. I guess you could say that for Barbie and their feminism shpiel, but we’ve talked about Barbie enough.

Royce: There are certain complex issues that get talked about so much that they become tropey. And so you hear the common talking points that have been repeated so many times that they’ve sort of– they’ve lost their perceived complexity because we’ve all heard them before.

Courtney: Yeah, that I– yeah, I’d agree with that. That makes sense to me. And so it’s– It’s very complex in a way that is very enriching. And I can tell that the director did a very masterful job of picking details in a way that really matters. And, even if it’s not evident at first glance, or if you have to think very hard about what things mean, I really do feel like there was a reason and a meaning for every decision that was made. And I don’t come away from a lot of movies feeling that way. And I feel like every time I watch this movie I could gain new insight as to what certain visuals mean, or certain colors, or more parallels between the TV show and the real world. Even just sitting here discussing it, I was like, “Oh my gosh, maybe it’s just the bury your gays trope! Maybe– maybe that’s it.” And I don’t know. It’s exciting to me. I like it.

Courtney: I do hope that, like you said, that there could be a sort of renaissance of queer horror and queer escapism. Because this is, I think, the kind of representation that we lack a lot of. Not only the broader queer community, but also the ace community. We have complained time and time again about how much of our representation is just a PSA. Just– This is designed to teach the audience that this type of person exists, but do we really connect with it on a very meaningful level? Does it feel like our own experiences? And do we get to explore the whole range of experiences and emotions? I want to see ace horror. I want to see ace joy. I want to see ace depression. Give me all of the emotions. And it doesn’t have to be realistic to feel authentic. So I want more like this, I really do.

Courtney: And I also think this is an example of you don’t have to say the word trans for a ton of people to watch this and be like this is a trans story. I want that. I think not using exact vocabulary doesn’t need to mean that it’s subtle. And hopefully even non-trans, non-queer people can still, on some level, relate to the horror of not living your life authentically. I think that’s an emotion that can be universal. And sometimes that’s the best thing you can ask for when it comes to representation. Because we want people to respect and understand our experiences, but also empathize with them on some level. So I think it was beautifully done. I’m going to be really excited to see, uh, what comes next for this director, since we do have a third movie coming out at some point. And is that just planned or do we actually have like a release date to look out for? Or is it gonna do like the film festival circuit before we could even watch it?

Royce: Well, I Saw the TV Glow came out this year, and now that I’m reading this Public Access, Afterworld is actually going to be a novel, not a movie.

Courtney: A novel? Oh, interesting. I could have sworn after we watched this, I read that this was going to be part of a trilogy of movies. Maybe I did read that, but the source was wrong.

Royce: It could be. I’m reading right now that at one point this story was conceived as a TV series and now it is being planned as a novel. I’m not seeing any updates since this summer, though.

Courtney: All right, I guess we’ll have to keep an eye out for that then and see what happens. But if you have not seen I Saw the TV Glow, I definitely recommend it. I think it was one of the more interesting movies I’ve seen in quite some time.

Courtney: But for today we’re going to round things out as always with our featured MarketplACE vendor, and this week we are giving a shout out to Allison’s Pride Crafts. Where you can get handmade Pride bracelets, especially for microlabels that sometimes don’t get much merch from an ace, greyaro, greygender woman. And these are very cool. There are a whopping 70 different flag patterns you can get and these are built as friendship bracelets and they are woven very pretty. You can wear them as a bracelet. And you can get, you know, the Rainbow Flag, the Progress Flag. I purchased the Asexual Flag, if you can believe it.

Courtney: But there are a ton of microlabels in here. So if there is a lesser known, lesser merch’d identity that you have out there that you are hungry for, check it out. They are very pretty and only a few bucks. And even if you don’t wear bracelets like this, I’ve actually been using mine as a bookmark and I love it. It’s a very good bookmark. I use a lot of things as bookmarks that are not technically bookmarks, but this one’s really fun when we’re reading a book with an ace character. And in fact, right now it’s in a book that we can’t talk about yet, but I’m really excited to talk about at some point. So, as always, links to check out Allison’s Pride Crafts are going to be in the show notes on our website alongside our full transcript. Or, if you’re listening on YouTube, you can find it in the description. And on that note, we will talk to you all next time. Bye, bye.