31% believe Asexuality can be “cured” by therapy: New research + Q&A ft. Yasmin Benoit

Transcript Transcribed by Laura M.

Courtney: Hello everyone and welcome back. My name is Courtney. I am here with my spouse, Royce, and together we are The Ace Couple and, as promised, we are joined today by Yasmin Benoit for our much anticipated part two. I understand, Yasmin, you have some exciting new research you’d like to share with us, and I want to hear everything. So let’s get into it.

Yasmin: Yeah, so I have just received a visiting position at King’s College London in the UK. We kind of started working together near the end of 2024. I’m going to be continuing to work with them, probably until around 2027. So I’ve got lots of time to produce some really interesting things. I’m specifically working with their Policy Institute and we’re doing research into all things asexuality related. And the first thing we wanted to do was to kind of look at public attitudes towards asexuality. So that’s kind of like the topic of our first paper. We had like 400 participants that we were doing this thing called like a double list experiment on. And the point in that experiment is that it’s a good way to kind of get honest answers out of people without factoring in things like social desirability bias. Because if you try to survey people, you try to interview people about something, they want to give the most socially acceptable answer. I think, especially if you’re talking about things to do with marginalized groups, people don’t want to say the racist thing, or say the bad thing.

Yasmin: So people usually filter their answers and then you don’t really get honest data. So the point in the double list experiment is that it kind of gives you like a bunch of statements and you kind of say the number of statements that you agree with, rather than which statements you agree with. And then you can kind of like adjure which ones were the things that they were thinking when you also throw in, like, controversial statements the next time and see how many they still agree with. So you can kind of use it as a way to work out what they’re really thinking. But what was interesting when we were doing this on– on our population of English people is that there was no social desirability bias when it came to asexuality and what they thought about that. People had no problem saying the bad thing. Which was quite surprising to the other researcher. It wasn’t surprising to me.

Courtney: Of course not.

Yasmin: But it was surprising to the other researchers because they were like, “Oh, people don’t– They try to hide the bad view, but for this they don’t even seem to recognize that it’s a bad view.” So we actually got very honest answers out of people. Like, we found that 31% of it– of our study believed that asexual people could be cured with therapy of asexuality. We found that two in five of the respondents believe that you can’t be asexual if you’ve had sex before. And we found that a quarter said that asexual people just haven’t met the right person yet. [Courtney hums] And that’s why they’re asexual.

Courtney: So all the things that publicly out ace people hear online, and in our day to day lives. So I don’t anticipate this is shocking to a lot of aces. But it’s funny that you have researchers who are like, “Wait a minute, we tried to tone it down so people didn’t feel bad, but they didn’t care.”

Yasmin: They didn’t feel bad at all. One in nine said that they don’t believe that asexual people exist in general.

Courtney: Oh.

Yasmin: So– So it was pretty– It was interesting. I feel like for me the most interesting part was just that people didn’t really try and hide it. But also when one of the other things we were asking about was kind of like about our rights in general, and in that part the answers are very positive. Like, seven out of ten said that they think that we should be protected by legislation. And 73% said that they would be comfortable with their child being asexual. But then there was also a large percentage that, you know, didn’t really think that we exist and think that we can be cured. And I feel like it’s almost like that thing of– You know, like, how I can say I have experienced a lot of racism, I have never met a person that’s willing to say that they’re racist. If I was to ask around, everyone would be like, “I’m not racist, I would never do something racist. What are you talking about?” But it’s like, so if we live in a world where no one’s racist, then how the hell have people experienced racism before? I feel like it’s kind of like that. If you were to ask people, they’d be like, “I’m not discriminating. Yeah, they should totally have, like, equal rights and whatever, totally. But they should probably also see a doctor.” It’s that kind of thing.

Courtney: Yeah, that’s fascinating. Because when you think about the percentages, that means that there is an extremely high likelihood that there’s a non insignificant number of people out there that are like, “If my kid was asexual, I would love them just the same and we would get them the help they need.” And that is conversion therapy!

Yasmin: And that’s the thing. It’s like the difference between people’s feelings and then their actions. And what you can kind of test and see. Because obviously I feel like that is a slightly more socially desirable answer is to be like, “Yeah, totally, they should get all the rights.” But then when you kind of dig a little deeper, things got a bit more interesting. When you kind of got into the details. And I think it’s a good example of how and why acephobia kind of just becomes such a commonplace among people that don’t actually know much about asexuality and don’t think they have a problem with asexuality. Because there isn’t even like– It’s not something you’re even taught to recognize in terms of like most people know, “Okay, you wouldn’t say this to a gay person, or this is a transphobic thing to say, or this is a racist thing to say, this is a sexist thing to say.” People don’t have that same gauge of asexuality. They have absolutely no idea of what a bad thing is to say. So it doesn’t surprise me that there isn’t a social desirability bias, because they don’t even know that they’re saying anything undesirable.

Courtney: Yeah, that’s so fascinating. And does make perfect sense. Because I’ve had people in my life, personal friends from my past, who have meant well or wanted to mean well, but occasionally they’ll just say something completely out of left field. I’ll be like, “That’s actually very bigoted against asexuals, and you know I am one.” And so the thing I started saying to people I knew like that was: take the statement you just said and substitute any other minority sexuality – take what you just said and insert gay people instead of asexual people – does that still feel comfy to say? And sometimes you’ll get the look across their face. They’re like, “Oh!” Because yeah, they’re thinking about it as this completely other thing and not a minority sexuality. So that’s fascinating that we have research now that’s going to show this so specifically. And I’m really glad that we’re looking at these biases. Because there are some studies out there and ones that I’ve often cited about how aces are more dehumanized, more likely to be equated to robots, more likely to be equated to animals and things of that nature. So do you find that this research is sort of building off of that research and going further for the sake of implementing policies for our rights?

Yasmin: Yeah. Although I do think that a lot of the research that happens about asexuality tends to be in the US. I feel like, I mean, even when I do things or I read things, like, we’re still citing, like, Anthony Bogaert’s study from, like, 2004.

Courtney: Yes, a lot of them are very out of date. Or the “One percent of the population is asexual,” I hear that thrown out so much more often, but there are more recent studies that suggest that that number has been creeping up.

Yasmin: Yeah. So I feel like, you know, there isn’t– I think in comparison to other orientations, we don’t have as much to build from. And I think that, you know, different countries kind of have more than others. Like we often end up citing American things over here. And it isn’t something that really gets much kind of investment into, like, learning more about asexuality. So I was pretty impressed that King’s were already thinking about that. They’re like a very– one of the biggest research universities in the UK I would say. You know how you guys have, like, Ivy League? I would say it’s kind of part of our, like, almost British equivalent of that. So to have them be like, “Hey, this is actually something we want to put our time and resources into doing continuously for multiple years, and instead of just doing it about the asexual community, without knowing anything about it, we want to get somebody who’s done research into that and like is knowledgeable about the community involved.” I thought was really cool.

Yasmin: And it’s another one of those things where, like you know, we have these conversations. Asexual people were always talking about these things. But in terms of, like, the wider general public, it doesn’t– The conversation doesn’t really expand further than our own community. Same with the stuff we’re all talking about in the ‘Ace In the UK’ report; it was like, yeah, it’s not surprising to asexual people, but it would probably be surprising to the general public. And even though we know all these things, unless things are written down and documented in research that you could then google and find, or it’s in academia or whatever, people don’t take it seriously, unfortunately. So I was like, I’m glad to be able to contribute to something that is kind of tangible in that way. I’m not saying that, you know, other things are– that are, like, less tangible or, like, less important, because I do lots of that stuff as well. But I think that, like, just knowing the way, like, academia is and knowing the way like research is, I feel like you also need to kind of tackle that.

Courtney: Yeah, absolutely. And I have such a complex personal relationship and feelings about academia, because there are so many things that are just done in a way that has me feeling a little salty. And I think what– what King’s is doing is very, very valuable by bringing you in. Because you’re in the room saying, “Yeah, I’m not surprised at all by this.” Meanwhile, other researchers are shocked by this. Because I’ll find, if there are academics, especially those who are non-asexual, who are studying asexuality, even if they are allies to the community, even if they are championing us and they have the best of intentions, sometimes I’ll see research presented as like this shocking find. “While I was studying asexuals, I learned this amazing thing!” And they’re presenting it as if like– And you kind of have to do that to get interest in your work. So I can only– Like, I can’t blame them too hard, but sometimes it’s something that is so obvious to me when I’m in this community. I’ve lived this life, I know other people, I have these conversations. And so they’ll be like, “The shocking new discovery!” And I’m like, “Yeah, no, that’s just my entire friend group.”

Yasmin: And that’s the thing. It also– It fits within a context that I think you only really have if you’re already within that community. Like these statistics about, “Oh well, yeah, they say that you can cure asexual people.” And, you know, 31% of the people said that. I’m like, “Well, that actually connects to this other data work on conversion therapy.” Which the people doing the research probably hadn’t really thought about. And then they’re like, “Oh, okay. So this supports this thing, and then this supports what you were talking about with the conversion therapy campaign. And then this links to the medicalization part.” And everything kind of is connected to each other. But unless you kind of have that experience of it in the community or you’re, like, already doing that work, it probably wouldn’t be on the radar. So I feel like that’s kind of like when I was writing it up, I was like, “We’ve got the data, but I can kind of put more context around this,” in terms of, like, what’s going on in the community.

Courtney: Yeah. Do you find that– Being an ace person yourself who has worked in this already and done previous research, do you find that it makes your work inherently a little more interdisciplinary, that you sort of have your finger on the pulse of different research? You know, different social issues? You’re having conversations with other people. So do you find that that is a big benefit to your work? That you’re able to connect those dots in a way that a researcher in a specific sector may not be able to on their own?

Yasmin: I do think so. And I think that that’s why, you know, as there’s that saying of like, you know, nothing about us without us. I think that that’s why it’s particularly useful, whether it’s consulting on something that’s completely non-academic or something that is academic, I think that just having that insight of somebody that actually has that lived experience makes all the difference. And you kind of– And I think that’s one of the things that academia has kind of gotten in trouble with. Before, you know, maybe if they’re doing, like, an anthropological study or a sociological study, and it kind of becomes a bit, like, voyeuristic after a while.

Yasmin: I do think that it’s beneficial to kind of get people involved. And for me it’s helpful because it – as I kind of said, with the way people view academia – it’s very, like, legitimizing. And I think that when I– Because you know, sometimes people see me and they’re just like, “Okay, there’s this random instagram girl,” like, “What is she talking about? What does she know about anything?”

Yasmin: But when I can– And they’ll say, like, “Is there any actual research and stuff?” And I’ll say, “Yes. Here’s something.” And, you know, before, when I could say, “Oh, here’s something with Stonewall,” there would be some sections of the UK where they’re like, “Oh, but it’s a Stonewall thing. That’s a– It’s a queer organization, like, of course they’re gonna say that.” But for a university like King’s, it’s a much more like neutral ground in a sense. It’s well, this is an esteemed academic institution and they’re saying it. It’s not like a queer charity talking about it. So there must be something going on there. So then it kind of means that people take things a bit more seriously when I talk about it, because I can cite some actual recent statistics that aren’t from, like, 2004. So, yeah, I feel like it’s helpful in that sense.

Courtney: Yeah, and that is again one of the things that does bother me so much about academia. Which is fascinating, because I think my brain is a little bit naturally academic. I read academic papers for fun. I engage in these very in-depth thought experiments. I try to look at most things in my life in an interdisciplinary nature. But it is very difficult, being a part of any given marginalized community and saying we’ve been having these conversations for years, we’ve been shouting about this, we know these issues, and to just feel that nobody is ever going to listen until someone with the right type of authority comes along and says, “Well, actually, I found this amazing new thing.” And so it is sort of a necessary evil in that sense, I think. Because in an ideal world, if a marginalized community says we have an issue, people would just care and listen and try to work with us. But we know this is the real world and that’s not how things work.

Yasmin: It’s true. But I do– Like I– I mean it’s funny, because I was talking to Sarah about it and she was like, “Oh, so, you know, you’re like an academic now?” And I was like, “Am I, though?!” And I was like, “Is that–? I guess…” I mean, yeah, I guess kind of. This is my– Like, I feel like I’m in my academic era. But I’ve always been interested in that side of things. Like, I was pretty like– I was a sociology undergrad, I was a crime science master’s. They were all very multidisciplinary. It was all like: how are all these different things interconnecting? And then when I kind of started like the activism stuff, I could use skills I’d gained from those things. But I was definitely like, “Okay, I’m not– I’m not going to be on the academic path.” Like, I’ve strayed way too far to be– to be doing research or to be working with any universities or anything like that. So I wasn’t anticipating that I would be able to use that skill set in this way. I didn’t think that any places would see me and associate me with that now.

Yasmin: But I am, like, definitely looking forward to kind of seeing what more we can do and, like, being able to get research that I can use my platform to amplify. And you know, I probably will have to be like, “Breaking news! Look at this thing!” Which is actually like super common knowledge to all of us, but that is breaking news to a section of the population. And knowing about, you know, doing so much in different universities, seeing how when people write things, you know, you have to do your citations and you have to cite things that are in certain legitimate sources and you can’t just cite, I don’t know, a Cosmo article or a Tumblr post. I mean, you can, but you need a certain number of things. So I’m glad to be able to add to those things. Because I know that, like, if I had chosen this to write about in, like, my dissertation, I would have needed things like this to cite.

Courtney: Oh yeah, for sure. And that does make perfect sense. And I mean I– Even though I tend to think in an academic way and enjoy academic conversation, I was systematically gate-kept out of college. I couldn’t have gone to college if I wanted to. And I did want to. But–

Yasmin: Because of, like, the prices?

Yasmin: Oh gosh, yes. Well, I was very, very ill my senior year of high school. I had some doctors who thought I was dying. I didn’t die, which I’m quite grateful for, but we were quite poor. My mother was very sick. I was on my own at 17, without being legally emancipated. So it was a whole thing. Lots of things were going on. But even just to take the tests that you needed at the time to get into college, like our ACT or SAT, you had to take this test. But it cost money to take the test. And you had to come in on a weekend on a full day to take the test, and I was working every spare hour that I wasn’t in school, and I needed that for things like food and rent. And so it’s like, “Well, I can’t afford to even take the test, let alone all of the fees for applications to get into schools…” And I would have gone into college at age 17 anyway, so I couldn’t have gotten my own loan. You need to be 18. And even when you are 18 with no credit history, you probably need someone to co-sign for you. And at that time I didn’t have anyone in my life who could have even co-signed for me. So I was like, “Well, I guess I just won’t go to college then.”

Yasmin: So sometimes I do like to brag that the first college class I ever took, or that I was ever in, was the one I was teaching. So sometimes, even if you don’t have an academic history, the work you’re doing is notable enough that– Because academics often study people, they study things that are happening. Sometimes you’re the one who is doing the things that are getting studied. And so I always find it best when people are able to bring those folks in. Because I have been invited to lecture at schools for my work in history, my work in art, my success as a small business owner. I haven’t broken into talking academically about asexuality yet. Although in just combing some academic papers on asexuality I’ve randomly found myself cited a couple of times. Specifically when I talk about disability things. So that’s always a shock because nobody told me.

Yasmin: I know. No one tells you those things. It’s like–

Courtney: I’m like, “Wait a minute.”

Yasmin: It always comes as a surprise.

Courtney: I think there was even one on just like representation in the media, where, like, our podcast was cited. And I was like, “Our podcast is getting cited in academic papers now? When did this happen?”

Yasmin: I remember, like a few years ago, I was like, “Oh, that’d be, like, one of my goals. Would be so cool to be, like, cited in something.” And someone was like, “You know you’ve been cited in loads of things already?” And I was like, “What…?”

Courtney: “Uh?” [laughs]

Yasmin: I assumed someone would tell. I don’t know, I kind of assumed you get, like, a notification, I don’t know. So I was just like, “Oh? Okay.” [laughs]

Courtney: Usually not.

Yasmin: I didn’t know that. But it’s true. ’Cause, like you said, you know, ending up teaching the class when you didn’t actually get to go to college, it’s like– I don’t know, I guess, from like a student’s perspective, when I saw the teachers or the people I was citing, I don’t know, you kind of assume that there’s a certain way of life or a certain path that leads to that. Like I have a– I had a friend who was a fellow at Cambridge and, I don’t know, I just kind of assumed that there was, like, a certain thing you did. That’s why I was never like– I was never aspiring to be like a visiting fellow at a university. Because I was like, “Well, that’s not– I don’t think I’m– I’m all of that.” And even when they approached me with it, they were like, “Oh, some of our other visiting fellows, we had, like, the first female prime minister of Australia or something.” And I was like–

Courtney: Oh.

Yasmin: And they’re like, “One of our other ones, like Baroness Rufano, like this member of the House of Lords,” and I’m like, “So they’re going to reject me once I send in this application then, right?” Like, why are you even talking–? Why are you even approaching me? And we actually started doing the work before they approved me, because I was thinking, well, just in case they’re like, “Ew, what do you talk–? Why would you suggest her?” I was like, I’ll do what I did with Stonewall, where I already get so far into it that it’s awkward to say no, was my technique.

Courtney: [laughs] Don’t give them the opportunity to say no.

Yasmin: Because, like, they approached me with it but they were like, “But there is a process.” And I was like, “So there’s a chance that you might approach me, but they might still say no.” So I was very worried, given the other people that have been fellows before, that they were just gonna say no. So I was very glad when they said yes, but then I was also like, “Okay, so…” Again I was like, are they gonna google me and google image search me and be like, “Hell no.” I was like, is this giving, you know, visiting academic or whatever? So I feel like it’s kind of cool to be– to see that, I don’t know, there are unconventional paths you can take. And that you can– you know, you don’t have to be like the typical professor vibes to be able to do these things, and maybe that’s, I don’t know, changing times.

Courtney: I welcome changing times in academia, I really do. There are so many issues in academia. And I still love so much of academia, so I’m always rooting for it to get better. And I do see projects like this as a sign that things are improving. So, with this new research, with these things that you’ve found, what are your intentions? What do you want to do and what do you hope to accomplish with the statistics that you now have and can point to?

Yasmin: I mean, I think it definitely lends to, or at least builds upon, what I was doing with Stonewall. Because, I mean, even when – like that was only like late 2023 – like it wasn’t that long ago, but sometimes I’ll talk to people and they’ll be like, “Oh, is there anything more recent?” And I’m like, “Damn, it’s barely– barely been a year.” Like, it’s not like it’s outdated or anything. It’s qualitative research and nothing’s changed since then, so it’s not outdated. But I was kind of already thinking like, “Okay, well, what next?” Like who do I research with next? Or what more can I add to this? Especially, you know, because that was kind of like the first thing in the UK in terms of asexual discrimination in a report. But I was like, well, that can’t just be the only thing to ever exist for the foreseeable future, so.

Yasmin: But until King’s approached me, I never really thought that that was kind of the avenue it was going to take. But I definitely want to use it to be able to kind of show, I guess, the legitimacy of acephobia and that it is a– it is a real thing and it’s a very unrecognized and unprotected thing here compared to other orientations. And it kind of gives me something else to cite. And every time, you know, we release new research, we do the press releases, like, then there’ll be, like, media headlines about it and stuff, and that kind of spurs people into thinking about it a bit more. And also, when I’m speaking at places, trying to encourage them to, you know, maybe train your employees or think about this in your– even in your educational settings, when you’re teaching about different forms of discrimination, here’s another one. And they’re like, “Oh! But is that really an issue?” And it’s like, “Well, yes, it is. See, cite this.”

Yasmin: So I think it will be pretty useful for that side of things. And yeah, just kind of like building upon existing research in that area is my hope. And then, of course, when we kind of– For the next two years, we can kind of come up with different things that we want to tackle. And I’m hoping to get, like, a kind of peer reviewed version of this is the next step, so I can have my first proper academic credit, would be cool. And then also for all of the people that are then going to go, “Oh, but it’s not peer reviewed yet.” Then I can be like, “Well, look, here’s the peer reviewed version.” Everybody’s happy. So just trying to, like, you know, cross the T’s and dot the I’s of everything.

Courtney: If the asexual community itself counts, yes, it is peer reviewed. [Yasmin laughs] These are our lives. Co-signed.

Yasmin: And that’s another one of the things where it’s like, I mean, take, like, I don’t know, the Ace Community survey or something. Like, I feel like that’s, like, super valuable. But there’s always going to be people that are like, “Oh, who was it conducted by? Was it– Which institution did it? Was it peer reviewed? Blah, blah, blah, blah.” So it’s always– It’s always like one of those, like, weird things. So I’m like, “Okay, let’s just do the peer reviewed version as well.” Even though that’s not even the version that people are going to read most of the time and that’s not the version that’s going to be like in the press or is, like, easy to, like, understand. But just to kind of get that out of the way, it’s just a good thing to do.

Courtney: What was, to you, the most shocking part of all this? Or was there a shocking statistic at all? Because obviously you aren’t as shocked as researchers are by certain things. But was there anything that even had you going, “Oh!”?

Yasmin: I mean, for me, the most shocking part was being asked to do it in the first place. That was, “Oh!”

Courtney: Fair. [laughs]

Yasmin: There was that. But yeah, I feel like it was just– I think it was just kind of more funny to me during the process. Because, you know, we kind of put the survey out into the world, we put the experiment out into the world, then you wait to kind of get the data back. And I just remember, like, my research partner being like, “Oh God, something’s gone wrong.” And I was like, “Oh no, what is it?” And he’s like, “Oh, I think something might be wrong with the data, I think you might have made a mistake.” And I was like, “Oh God, are we going to have to do it again?” And then he was like, “It was just, they haven’t hidden their bias. That’s never happened before.” Like it’s literally an– He’s like, “That’s never happened before.” And I was like, “Oh, I don’t think that’s a mistake, I think that that’s– That’s just how people are.” Like, they were like–

Courtney: That’s so funny.

Yasmin: But, like, my heart sank. I was like, “Oh god, I’m doing my first thing and it’s gone wrong.” Like, like, they’re like, legitimately concerned. Like this is never– There’s a whole reason why this experiment exists. It’s– it’s because this is what happens. There’s never been a time that hasn’t happened. So that was just, like, not necessarily shocking, but just like funny. ’Cause I was like, “Oh God, it’s gone wrong.” And I was like, “Actually no, that’s– that’s fine,” like reassuring them, this is actually fine.

Courtney: That’s so funny. I mean it’s very sad, but it’s very funny that the answer to, “Oh, these people aren’t even being subtle about their acephobia. They aren’t trying to hide it at all.” and there’s a research going, “This data is corrupt, something has gone wrong.” And you’re like, “No, that checks out.”

Yasmin: It’s fine. Because that’s literally the purpose, is like we could have just done a normal survey, but it was like no, we need to do the double list experiment style, otherwise you’re not going to get real answers.

Yasmin: Like the hypothesis, the foundation of it was that people weren’t going to be honest. So they were very confused when everyone was so honest.

Courtney: Wow, I mean, so many people within the Ace Community like to use the phrase, “We’re the last acceptable targets.” Because there are definitely people who are very outspoken against, like, “Yeah, it’s okay to dunk on asexuals. Yes, it’s okay to feel this way because they’re just asexual. That’s not a thing, or that’s not as important as the other things.” And so I feel like that gives us an academic paper that proves we are the last acceptable targets. Oh, that’s so depressing.

Yasmin: [chuckles] But it’s like at least we now have data to back it up.

Courtney: If King’s College says it.

Yasmin: Because otherwise people are like, “Oh yeah, it’s just making that up.” It’s like, no, it’s written down, it’s official. A college researched it and came to this conclusion, it’s not just me saying it.

Courtney: Oh, that is so fascinating. Well, we do have just so many questions that were sent in from part one, but I want to make sure we get everything out about this upcoming project. Is there anything else you want to get out before we move on to the Q&A?

Yasmin: Probably– Well, I don’t– Because we’re recording this slightly earlier than when it’s actually being released, we can put a link to it.

Courtney: Yes.

Yasmin: Wherever it is so people can find the actual paper, but the link does not yet exist at the time of recording it. But we will include that so people can find it.

Courtney: Absolutely. We’re– We’re planning, if all goes well, this will be released probably the same week it is published. So all of you listeners, this is brand new, shiny, just dropped. The link will be in the description on YouTube, in our show notes on our website. We’ll make sure you can find it. Because I’m sure you are just as excited as we are to read it all. But in talking about research, that is probably a good jumping point. We’ve got– we’ve got a diversity of questions here, but someone did specifically ask: how do you organize your research?

Yasmin: I mean, I feel like there’s multiple ways to do. Because, you know, you’ve got things like– I say, I assume when they see organized, I mean like how do you start doing it. I assume that’s kind of like the nature of the question. But I feel like there are so many ways that people can kind of do that kind of thing. Because you know, when you think about, like, the Ace Community survey, that’s like done by the community and there are volunteers for that, and I’m sure there are volunteers for writing it up or for sending out the questions and all of that. So I feel like there are ways you can kind of get involved in those kind of things. But I guess, from the more– from the ways I’ve done it, which has been either with a queer organization or with a university, if you’re at university, like, I’ll often get students be like, “Hey, can you read my dissertation?” or can– I’m like, “No, sorry.” I don’t have time for that.

Yasmin: But there are things that you can be doing if you’re actively a student. I mean even– even you know, if you’re writing like your PhD on something when that goes out into the world that joins the body of existing research. And when you’re– And you can also just, like, approach, you know, like, your local charities. Like I often see charities that will put out surveys and they’ll do different things into, like, the general queer population and many of them will just miss asexuality out of it. But if they had people working with them on that then they could do more. As with Stonewall, they were not doing things into asexuality before, and then I kind of harassed them into doing it. And you could be a harasser too, if you put your mind to it. [both laugh] So I would suggest not being afraid to kind of do that kind of thing and look at places that have the resources and the connections or the experience that you don’t have, and harassing them into doing the thing that you want to do and then offering to help after you’ve backed them into a corner, would be my advice.

Courtney: Amazing. Because we did also have several questions that were something along the lines of, “How can I be an activist?” And it sounds like your answer is, “Harass people.” [laughs]

Yasmin: I mean, that is what I spend most of my time doing. Like, you guys only see, like, the end result if the harassment works out and I get to do the thing. But prior to that, it’s just me sending a lot of emails or finding people in real life and trying to talk them into doing things they probably didn’t want to do in the first place. And sometimes it works. Lots of the time it doesn’t. But when it does work, it usually goes well. Sometimes it doesn’t, but sometimes it does. So it’s a lot of just throwing things at the wall and seeing what sticks. And I don’t mean– I don’t know if that’s everyone’s approach to activism. That’s just how it works for me. But that would literally be my main advice. But it was like, “How’d you be an activist?” Just force people to do things that you want them to do. In any area. It might be in your college. It might be in your school, it might be in your workplace, it might be in your youth group. Like it might be just on, like, a website, whatever it is. And that– They might ignore you, they might kick you, or they might agree.

Courtney: Yeah, sometimes it is equally of value, if not more valuable, to just be the lone vocal ace person in the room. And I understand that that is very frightening for a lot of people. But as far as, like, aces doing things, you mentioned the Ace Community survey. That is a group of volunteers. That is a group of ace people who are doing something. So there certainly are opportunities like that out there to seek out and try to volunteer with. But sometimes it’s very much a value to step outside of our community and say, “Hey, here is your blind spot, you are missing aces. I am an ace, let me help you. What can I do to get you to care about this issue?” And that does sort of bring it out into a broader, more public discussion. And I feel like that’s something that you really excel at. That’s something that you are known for is putting asexuality in places where it either should have already been but wasn’t, or in places that are less conventional.

Courtney: Recently you appeared in Playboy as one example.

Yasmin: Where some people were like, “Why the hell are you doing that?” And I’m like, “Because no one’s doing it, why not?” Like, I don’t know, I like, I like to do the things– or I’m like– I think, especially in sex positive spaces, I think it actually makes a lot of sense to have that conversation. In places that talk about sexuality all the time, I’m like duh. To me that makes perfect sense. Previously some people were like, “Visually, we associate that with something that you wouldn’t put asexuality into.” But I’m like, I feel like– like most sexuality related things, which are kind of infiltrated into everything, why shouldn’t asexuality be as well?

Courtney: And I think that’s fair enough. Okay, we’ve got a massive list of questions here, Royce, I’m gonna let you pick the next one. We’ll sort of– we’ll sort of go back and forth.

Royce: I figured we’d start chipping away at it. Along the same lines with that last question, for the aces out there that don’t feel up to sort of championing their own initiatives, we did get a question about how can people help support you in the work that you’re doing?

Yasmin: Honestly, just like amplifying it makes a difference. Because you never really know, like, where something’s gonna land. And it could be, like, so far outside of my bubble that it ends up turning into something else. Like, even if you’re just like– It could just be like sharing something, it could just be– I don’t know, maybe in your library when they’re like putting resources together. I’ve had some places be like, “Hey, can we put the Ace Report in the library?” And I’m like, yeah, that’s actually like– I didn’t think of that, but that’s actually a really helpful thing. Because who knows who might then pick that up. Like there are, like, really subtle things you could do, but even just anything that involves just, like, spreading the word makes things so much easier. Because there’s only so many people I can reach, and I don’t like just screaming into the ether and speaking within like an echo chamber and just constantly reaching the same people. Which is why I’m always trying to get out of my own bubble as much as possible.

Yasmin: But yeah, just doing things like that really makes all the difference, because some of the coolest things I’ve had the chance to do is because someone that I never would have encountered heard of me through somebody else. And thus we then ended up doing a thing. Like, I’m sure that’s probably how the King’s thing came about. Sure, that’s how New York came about. I’m sure that’s how my work in, like, really random countries has come about. It’s just through word of mouth. So, yeah, things like that really make a difference. And even outside of it coming back to me, you never know, like, who that’s gonna reach. Like I was at something once and someone was like, “Oh, my, like, friend’s younger sister, like, found one of your articles and, like, then came out of the closet. And now the whole family, like, has educated themselves about asexuality and now they’re really happy.” And I’m like, “Damn, I never would have known that about your friends and, like, younger sister.” So yeah, it just kind of has, like, that butterfly effect. So just spreading the word is great.

Courtney: So I know you said in part one that you do not engage with, if not actively avoid, ace representation in the media, so I am sorry to all of you who ask questions about ace representation in the media, but we are not going to ask those. But we did get one question that was: are there any particular activists or writers you look up to or influence your work or any people you recommend learning from? That did not say ace specific, so it does not have to be someone ace specific.

Yasmin: I mean, I feel like I could probably answer it based on the last phrasing of the question of, like, wait, what was the last phrasing of the question? Like the last line was who, like, you’d recommend learning from?

Courtney: Yes, people you recommend learning from.

Yasmin: Yeah, I mean. Well, you two are an example. I recommend you two to people. I recommend Sherronda to people. I recommend Angela to people. Sherronda J. Brown and Angela Chen… I don’t think– Who else I recommend people learning from…?

Courtney: I mean, those are good answers right off the bat.

Yasmin: I guess those are probably–

Courtney: We mentioned Sherronda J Brown’s book, Refusing Compulsory Sexuality multiple times. ACE by Angela Chen was a book I read and was very happy to see that it was out at the time it came out. It was actually shortly after reading that book that I felt so happy, and I just like actually gotten my first Ace Pride flag, because I haven’t historically been much of a flag person. But someone online wanted to send me an Ace flag and that was very nice of them. And so I got it in the mail. And I finished reading Angela Chen’s book and there’s a whole chapter about disability, which is something I’ve been trying to talk about for a couple of years. And so I was like, “Maybe now’s the time, maybe people are ready for this.” And then I stepped out and started talking about it and then got harassed real bad. And so I was like, “Oh, I was– I was on such a high of community and Pride and then it got so low.” But I still do very much appreciate the book. So those– those are some great examples.

Royce: Well, for the next question, speaking of negative attention within the Ace Community, Yasmin, this one is just mentioning sometimes the things you’re involved in do get a lot of negative internal attention and asks how do you decide what projects are worth it to take on? Like, worth the energy or the effort. And are there any projects in particular that you regret doing in the first place, now that everything has fallen?

Yasmin: Ooh, you know what? What’s difficult about it is that it’s so hard to gauge, at least for me because I’m freaking oblivious, like, what’s going to be the thing that people don’t like. Like I remember I think one of the first things I did that got backlash is when I did the Budweiser one. And I was like, “Everyone’s going to be so happy.” We’ve got an official place and one of the biggest Prides in the world. We’ve got our own space for two days. Everything’s free. You got free food, you got free drinks, you got free entertainment. Everyone’s going to be so happy.

Yasmin: And when people were pissed, I was like, “What?!” Like, I didn’t even expect that one. ’Cause people were like, “Oh, but it’s an alcohol company.” And I was like, [whispering] “It’s Pride…” Like I don’t know. So I was– Like there are some things I’m just like I genuinely don’t even anticipate. And I start things, like, really optimistic. And then there were some things like Playboy where I thought people were going to be really pissed about that one, and I was really nervous about that. But like, I mean people were, but they weren’t– I felt like it was like 80% positive and I had the feeling that it was going to be like 80% negative. And that it was just gonna like– Well, it’s gonna sound weird, but it’s just gonna, like, help my inner child who used to, like, love WWE and love seeing my favorite wrestlers on, like, Playboy covers. I felt like it was just gonna, like, soothe me internally and everyone else was gonna hate it, but then people really liked that one.

Yasmin: So I don’t have a good gauge of what’s going to upset people. It can be very hard to work it out. I don’t think there were many things that I regret doing just because my logic to it is that I’m like: even if 80% of the people, even if 99% of the people, hate it, but there’s one person that’s like, “I’m really glad that that existed and that helped me in some way,” then I’m like, “Okay, terrible for my psyche, good for them.” So I take that as a positive and I try to just, like, hold on to that, like, little speck of goodness. So I don’t think I regret any of them, but there were definitely some where, I guess, if I could go back in time, I would maybe, like, warn myself. Like, I think Sex Education would be one. Or I would just, like, warn myself of, like, you’re really happy with this and you think this is gonna go so well? Lower your expectations drastically.

Courtney: Yeah, that’s– That’s fascinating. Because actually, in some of these other questions, like asking specifically about some of those controversial projects you’ve done, someone did mention, like, yeah, the, the Pride Bar, and is that a thing that you regret doing? Would you have done that differently? We also have people who mentioned talking to Newsmax and talking to cops.

Yasmin: [laughs] These are specific people, damn!

Courtney: [laughs] So if you–

Yasmin: Yo, let’s go there.

Courtney: So if you want to go there, for the listeners, let’s explain to them exactly what the Pride Bar was, what the Newsmax was, and what the talking to cops was. So I’m sure we have people out there that are like, “What are these projects?” So share what those were and then maybe we can talk about the community’s reaction and your– what you’ve taken away from those experiences.

Yasmin: Yeah, so Budweiser 2019, they’re sponsoring Pride in London. This was pre Bud Light, this is pre all that stuff. They were doing a campaign called Fly the Flag and their whole point was that they wanted to raise awareness of all the different flags and all the different communities in the acronym. And they also wanted to specifically donate and work with charities that weren’t the typical charities, which I personally thought was really good. Because they could have just been like, “Oh, we’re going to donate to Stonewall, we’re going to go to the big ones.” But the fact that they were like, “Let’s look at the intersex organizations, let’s look at the asexual organizations.” I thought that was cool. And then that was kind of how they approached me. And they were like, “We want to do a space.” Like I literally went to like the office of the company that was working with them on it. They had all of– They had this whole slideshow to show me, like they were already, like, pitching it to me as something they wanted to make happen.

Yasmin: And I remember I was slightly– I think you can only advertise alcohol when you’re like 25 and over, and I was actually younger than that at the time. So I think we had to, like, do so we have to be very careful with, like, the promotion. It was like– I don’t– I think I was like 22, 23 at the time, maybe 24, I don’t know. But yeah, so they wanted to do a space in London, in Soho, specifically like gay central. And yeah, and it was one of those things where, online of course, there were people that were like, “Asexual things shouldn’t be at Pride,” like point blank. And then there were asexual people that were like, “I don’t like Budweiser, I don’t like the association between alcohol and Pride. Are they trying to get asexual people into alcohol?”

Yasmin: And I was like everyone here are, like, grown adults. They can drink if they want to drink. Like, you know, it’s– There’s non-alcoholic options, there’s alcoholic options. We’re in the middle of London. If you want to drink, you’re going to get a drink. I don’t think this is going to be the thing that pushes you over the edge and turns you into an alcoholic. So I was like, “We’re all adults here, I think it’s fine.” And also people were like, “Oh, why don’t you work with – I don’t know – a nice brand like Oreo or something?” And it’s like why don’t I? Why don’t we ask Oreo why they’re not doing a damn thing? That should be the question. Not why is Budweiser, but why are these brands that you like more and you think I should work with more aren’t doing anything? There’s a reason I work with the people I work with. So, yeah.

Yasmin: But then when it came to the actual event, sold out immediately. And everyone had, like, the best time and people still mention it to me to this day. And you know what? I’d do it again. And next year I hope I can do more spaces that are fun, and that have food, and that have drinks, and that, you know, people can just like vibe in. Because I feel like every other section of the queer community has their own bars and has their own like indoor, like, hangouts and stuff. And that aren’t just, like, meeting up in a park. And I think that ace spaces should also be able to have, like, a fun, you know, place of music and vibe type of atmosphere. So, no. I definitely don’t regret doing that. I think it was like one of my favorite things. And a lot of the people there were like, “This is our first time seeing asexual people in real life or having this kind of space in this setting.” So I think it was really positive. What was the next scandal?

Courtney: Oh, let’s see. Talking to Newsmax was mentioned.

Yasmin: Oh! Oh yeah, I don’t regret that. I thought that was kind of fun. [chuckles] I’m not mad at that..

Courtney: Yeah. I think just talking to conservative outlets who are going to try to paint you in a certain kind of light, or maybe willfully trying to misunderstand you. I think the questions are around that is, like, “Was that worth it to you?”

Yasmin: I think so. I think it was good experience, you know, to be able to kind of have that. Like I’ve never– I mean, I’ve done like news things before, but I haven’t really done it where I was thinking, “Oh, like I don’t–” is this going to be a back and forth, is this going to be, like, more of a debate? So, so I was glad, like I felt like it was just, like, good experience in general, just like in life, to have that kind of setting. But also, if I hadn’t have done that– Also, I have learned this because this has happened to me in the UK, I remember one time when I was going viral on Twitter for something, it was a Saturday morning, I’m getting in the shower and I get a phone call being like, “Hey, GB News want to do a debate with you in like a few hours.” And I’m like, “No, I’ve got a restaurant reservation. I’m getting in the shower.” Me assuming that because I said that the debate’s not going to happen. It did happen without me being there. So they were just talking about me without me being there. So when people are like, “Well, why did you say– Why’d you say yes to these things?” It’s like if I say no, that doesn’t stop it from happening.

Courtney: It just means I’m not in the room to say my own piece. Yeah, that makes sense.

Yasmin: It’s just people talking about me. So I was like– And I knew that that probably would have happened without me because I wasn’t the first choice to talk about me. So I definitely am glad that I did that and I’m not afraid of talking to conservatives. I’ve spoken to conservatives in this country. And I think, again, you know, I could talk to a liberal channel. But one, liberal channels don’t want to talk about it. And two, what’s the point in preaching to the converted? I want to reach different people. And he wasn’t scary. He wasn’t scary [Courtney laughs] he was confused, he wasn’t scary. I thought it was going to be like Piers Morgan and we were just going to be yelling at each other the whole time. So I was like, “This confused man is fine.” And the third one was the cops one?

Courtney: The cops one, yes.

Yasmin: The cops one. As a British person, I will be referring to it differently. [both laughs]

Courtney: That’s– I’ve got a feeling, part of that backlash, and I’ll be curious to hear what your impression was, was that probably most of the people upset about that were not actually from your country. But we’ll get into it.

Yasmin: No–

Courtney: So what was the cops thing?

Yasmin: What was the cops thing? So I– God, when was this now? A few months, yeah, like earlier in the year. I don’t even know how this came to be again. Like, sometimes I seek things out and sometimes just random things happen. And this was one of those random things where someone got in touch and they said, “We have an LGBT police conference,” and it was in– It was like in March. So people were like, “Oh, you brought police to Pride.” It wasn’t Pride, it was in March. And they were like, “Yeah, we’re talking about– we want you to kind of talk about asexuality,” and, you know, how asexuality isn’t really included in, like, hate crime laws and stuff, and what the police could be doing better for these communities. Like that was kind of like the purpose of the thing. One of the other things that was covered there, there was this thing on this gay serial killer that had happened in the UK only being charged, like, not that long ago. And I guess how the police could have handled that case better.

Yasmin: So they had people of very different parts, like it could have been like people high up in the police or it could be like the IT guy in the police station. Like, this was pretty much anybody who had anything to do with policing, which is why I referred to it as people in policing. And people were like, “Why are you, like, trying to–” Like, you know? People like, “Why are you calling them people in policing? Just call them cops.” It’s like, no, but they weren’t active. By my definition, the IT guy in a police station is not a cop. I wouldn’t define that as a cop. People have different definitions but to me that’s why I said this is people that are working in policing in general. Because it was anybody there. It could be the HR person, like it wasn’t all like police officers.

Yasmin: One of the other things they had there, which was quite a big thing in the UK, there was a trans girl that got murdered last year called Brianna Jai, and that was a very big thing that happened here. And her family were due to be there and the people that had worked on that case, and kind of talking about, like you know, in the future, if there are other cases like this, like, what could we be doing? Like, how did the family feel about that experience? So when I heard that, I was like, “Okay, this isn’t a setup, probably.” Because if they’re agreeing to– if the family of a girl who was murdered is there with the police that were handling that case, and they’re all talking about how we could make sure that things are good for the queer community moving forward. That must be a good thing. And getting– Having a conversation about asexuality in that space is very unusual. And the person that approached you was like, “We’ve never done this before, but I think it’s something that could be worth doing.” And I was like, oh, you know what? This is– When I say I like to go outside of the bubble, this is literally an example of going outside of the bubble. So I was like, “Okay, let’s– I’ll go, I’ll say the thing.”

Yasmin: And it ends up being like– When I said conference, I thought I was going to be like in, like, a little breakout room talking to like 40 people. I walked into this giant ballroom and there was like 200 and something people there on these giant, like, round tables, and like this big stage. And I was like, “Oh… my… God.” And also I was following from, like, the Brianna Jai thing. So I was like, this is atmospherically intense. So it was probably one of the most terrifying talks I’ve ever done in my life. I had an hour to talk to these people about these things. And the reception was really good. And also it was police from like all over the country. Like, so, it had representatives from everywhere, including from my town, including from lots of different– different places, small forces, big forces. All different parts and choosing, like, workplace inclusion. Like, that side of things as well as like the laws and the legislation and how you would handle crimes if the person’s asexual and do your statistics match up with that, and all these kind of things.

Yasmin: So, yeah, I thought it went well and it was very, like, well received. And me– Like, I think, after I did that, I immediately had a job in the depths of Wales, like, the middle of nowhere, no signal, no anything. So I went straight from there to there. So I didn’t post anything. While I was in Wales I found out that my cousin had died, and then I was like– So that kind of threw my brain off a bit. But then I’m like– And then I also immediately had to go to Lithuania afterwards for another work thing. So I literally went from Wales back home and it was literally like, “Oh, I haven’t posted in like four days or whatever. What did I just do? Police thing, post, whatever.” Other things going on, prepping for Lithuania, family is in chaos. All hell breaks loose on social media. And I’m just like, “Oh, Jesus Christ, whatever.” Delete it, go to Lithuania, do all of that. And it– And then it just, like, came up again, I think, during, like, Pride month, when people saw that, like, I was getting hate. So they were like, “Let’s jump on that.” And I was like, “Cool guys, this is nice. Trying to help y’all.”

Courtney: Yeah, that’s what was so fascinating to me about that. Because, first of all, I have a horrible relationship with the cops in my country. Lots of people do. I’ll be the first to admit I know almost nothing about policing in most other countries, but I have firsthand experience with our system. And I know how broken our system is. And I know what the different schools of thought are for reforming, abolishing, helping, aiding those systems to be better, and I advocate for those. I don’t know what that looks like in your country. I don’t know what that looks like in others. But I do know how people misinterpret things, or intentionally interpret things in the least charitable light online. And when we, when you and I, were chatting about this privately in, like, the first week in July, there was like a new, fresh round of it where I was seeing people be like, “No cops at Pride. Yasmin brought cops to Pride.” And I was like…

Yasmin: I know that this is, like, a bad thing to say, but I kind of love it that people thought that, like, it’s like, do you think that I just show up and I’m just like, “999, police?”

Courtney: Police.

Yasmin: “All of the police, I want you here right now.” And then all of these forces, just empty, like, “Yasmin’s calling, saddle up boys!” And they just head– I’m like– Did– I personally brought them? How would that even work? [laughs] Like, how does that work?

Courtney: That is fascinating.

Yasmin: And that was in March. This was so many months before.

Courtney: Yeah, and it just got recycled but changed to be the worst possible. Like Yasmin is solely responsible for cops being at Pride. And it’s like, I understand, I get why people say no cops at Pride. I did not get why people were saying that to you, several months after you spoke at a conference. And like–

Yasmin: They were just doing it to be annoying. Because I’m like, you guys waited for me to go viral. You waited for people to be on me for being at Pride, and then you decided, through good faith, well meaning, to bring this up from March, again? And you’re wondering why you’re getting blocked? I know what you’re doing.

Yasmin: But also it was just like– It’s like– Again, different countries have very different, like, things. I think even different towns. Like if you talk about, like, police in London versus police, like, where I live, where I live, the police have always been involved in our Pride. Like it’s not very weird here. Like, one of our like board members of my local Pride is a police officer. Like the Police and Pride, like, every month they have, lik,e little meetings of the queer community in my town to make sure that things are going okay. Like that’s kind of like a normal thing where I live. In London, different police force, different vibes, but also the police are still– have always been at Pride and they will be in the parade and all that. And that’s like– it’s like whatever.

Yasmin: It’s been happening for, like, a very long time. But a lot of the people I think who’re not in this country and so it was like there’s many different things and attitudes and, again, schools of thought that happen about things. I didn’t even say what my school of thought was. And I remember at the time where we met, I was like, “I could easily do a tweet,” and I could have put this to bed months ago. I just couldn’t be bothered because I was like, “I have other things going on. I got, like, funerals and stuff.” And then I have these whiny people screaming at me that I don’t even know. So I was like, “I could have settled this,” and I think I did do a tweet about it, like, way months later.

Courtney: Yeah, it’s fascinating.

Yasmin: But I could have settled it way earlier if I wanted to.

Courtney: Because I actually do have a friend in a Scandinavian country, and she is a Black woman, she works in policing. And when I was visiting her and talking at one point, she was straight up saying like, “I love my job, I trust and respect our department, and the police officers I work with,” and all those things. But then she’s like, “I don’t even want to visit America because of everything I know about your police situation.” And I was like, “That’s fascinating.” There are different attitudes from different folks.

Yasmin: But it’s different because, I mean, when I was in New York, you know, seeing police with guns was very weird, because we don’t have that here.

Courtney: We do. We have a lot of that here.

Yasmin: So that in itself, I feel like almost psychologically puts you in a different position with police. Like over here our police aren’t armed. Like, you might maybe get tasered, maybe, but not often. But like that’s the most that’s gonna happen, like they don’t really have weapons like that. So that kind of sets a different tone. But then part of it was also, like you know, they were kind of guarding the route and stuff. I was like, “Well, if they weren’t here guarding this route of all these queer people in this city, and lots of other people in this city have guns, would that be bad?” Like, what happens if they aren’t here to guard the events?

Yasmin: And I think, like the same thing in London, think about how increasingly hostile things are towards queer things. I’m like, what would happen if there was no security? So I kind of have, like, different things about it. But yeah, everyone kind of jumps straight to, “Okay, Yasmin must be a cop,” pretty much.

Courtney: – and spiral.

Yasmin: And even, you know, people were bringing up my– People were like, “Oh my god, and she studied crime science? So she must be a cop.” And I was like, “Damn, I can’t have interest.”

Courtney: Well, that’s probably why you studied crime science, was that? So you could single-handedly bring the cops to Pride someday.

Yasmin: That’s how I know all of the police. [Courtney laughs] That is– is how I know. We studied together, like we graduated together, and now we’re besties. And that’s how I know all the police. Um, but no. So yeah, that’s kind of my thoughts on the police thing. Everything I just said there might have made everyone’s thoughts way worse. I don’t know. People can just come to their own conclusions.

Courtney: From an American perspective, knowing the culture there is not the same, like, just the fact that all of your cops don’t have all the guns. That’s– that’s already– We can’t– can’t picture that. But I’ve been, like, illegally arrested. I have been profiled by police at a young age. I was– had my car falsely searched at age 15, 16, and then at that age was accused by that cop of being a prostitute because I had a corset in my car. So I think about all those things and it’s like, yeah, I don’t want to be friends with the cops. But if there was a policing convention and someone said to me, “Hey, we want you to be the expert voice in the room talking to the police.” I was like– I might even do that, even with our police, just because that would almost be cathartic for me to be like, “You have to listen to me now.”

Yasmin: And that’s the thing. Like, I feel like, I mean, I’m like– I’m not– I wasn’t doing it because I thought the police are amazing. I was doing it for the opposite reason. But it’s like, yeah, you could say, you know, ACAB, abolish the police. You can say it all you want, but the police are still there. So in the meantime, what are we going to do? Just leave them to do things? And to be fair, not only do I not regret doing that, since then I’ve done another thing. Probably I shouldn’t say that, but–

Courtney: [gasps] You talked to the police again!? [chuckles]

Yasmin: I did. [chuckles] This time it was specifically– There was a group within Hampshire police, and Hampshire is like right near me, who are the police that are specifically trained to work with queer people for queer crimes. And they were like, “Hey, there’s a gap in our training.” They haven’t done anything about asexuality before. Just in case they ever have an asexual victim of something, I feel like they should know about it. And I was like, I agree. If they’re going to be educated about everything else and it’s their job to specifically handle queer people, they should also know about this. So I was like, yeah, I’ll come in and I’ll talk to those specifically trained police to ensure that they also know about this. So maybe I am a bootlicker for that, I don’t know, but I thought it was useful, and so did they, so.

Courtney: Amazing, all right.

Yasmin: Am I going to get in trouble for saying that? We’ll see. [chuckles]

Courtney: You might, you might. I mean, I am very, like, personally I haven’t been subtle about this. I am ‘ACAB’, I am ‘abolish the prison system’. But I– I have firsthand experience from multiple angles of our police and our prison system, and so I know the issues. And I know how bad they are. But I do still think, like, activism is such a complicated line to walk in the eye of public perception, because even if your end goal is prison abolition, defund the police, tear the entire system down and do it anew, that is long term stuff.

Yasmin: It’s not instantaneous.

Courtney: It’s not going to happen overnight. So there are the thinkers, the activists, who are really eye on the prize, looking for those long-term overhauls and massive solutions. But I do still think we need people working with the system we currently have, because it’s what we currently have, so. And I know a lot of people will be like, “Oh, that’s just– You know, this incremental progress isn’t enough.” No, I agree, it’s not enough. We should still keep pushing forward, but we also still have this system. So I understand the tight line to walk in those.

Yasmin: Yeah. I think it’s cool to have those, and it’s the same for, like, people, like, “Well, just abolish capitalism.” It’s like, yeah, but in the meantime we could try and make workplaces better. And, yeah, some people be like, “There is no such thing as a better workplace.” People in those workplaces might disagree. So in the meantime let’s try and make those things better and then abolish it in like 200 years or something. I don’t know how long that would take. But it’s like I don’t see why it has to be like an either/or. I feel like I would rather be educated– like be arrested by a nice police officer [chuckles] than one that’s– you know, like.

Courtney: Honestly? Honestly, yeah. As– As someone accused of being a prostitute as a 15 or 16 year old– Which is wild to me, because if they thought any sex work at all was happening at that age, why weren’t they concerned about child trafficking? Why were they, like, trying to arrest me for being a sex worker?

Yasmin: Why their questions.

Courtney: Like, there were so many issues. I had a cop call me a prairie n-word as a minor. It’s like–

Yasmin: Just such an American– I’m like– I like– I had heard of that but I didn’t realize anyone actually used that. I just assumed it was like a 4chan thing or something. Like, people actually have that word leave their mouths is wild to me.

Courtney: Oh, yeah, yeah. Prairie– prairie n-word. Heard it a couple times when I was living in South Dakota. A very special slur for, uh, Native Americans. So yeah, absolutely, like, I’ve heard those things. It’s like, if I had to get arrested I’d rather get arrested by someone who isn’t saying that shit, you know?

Yasmin: Or more so, if something bad happens, and I need to contact the police about it, I would want it to be police that understand what I’m talking about. And aren’t just like immediately, “No.” So kind of like both ends.

Courtney: [hums in agreement] All right. Well, here’s another interesting, specific one. A lot of these questions are vague. A couple of them are specific. So I feel like we’re in a specific mood. Let’s get those out of the way. Then we’ll go to the more overarching ones. Question: Are you still on the board of AVEN? And if so, why haven’t they changed the definition of asexuality on the website yet?

Yasmin: [laughs] That’s so funny, sorry. Yes, yes, I’m still on the board of AVEN. Why haven’t they done that? Even though it’s been spoken about for about two years? Because people are slow and people have jobs. Like, is my honest answer. Maybe because people were so angry when it was, like, announced and were like so unreceptive that maybe people got a bit put off. You know? Rushing into it. Even though I say rushing, I mean years and years and years of thinking about it.

Yasmin: And then also, yeah, people in England are just, like, super busy right now. I mean, David Jay has like multiple babies. Well, not even babies anymore like children, fully functioning little people. People have like full-time jobs, they have illnesses, they have other life things going on. And yes, the definition on the home page is like a priority to some people, but I think, just like in, you know, your, like, life hierarchy, not the biggest deal all the time to others. So I think it’s something that in our end of year mini-con was spoken about as something that’s probably gonna happen in 2015– 2015? Damn, 2025. So, yeah, I feel like it probably is on the horizon, but yeah, there’s just been other things going on. I mean, you probably noticed that lots of things, like, you know, having our bigger conferences, like lots of things have kind of fallen by the wayside over the past few years, because people are just busy with life stuff really.

Courtney: I think there’s a lot of – in activism in general, not even just asexuality or AVEN – but just in general there’s a lot of burnout. It gets hard, it takes a lot of energy and there’s no way to please everyone. So sometimes things do just start to wear down slowly, with individuals as well as organizations, is my observation. [Yasmin hums in agreement]

Royce: Okay, this next question is: how do you think the public perception of asexuality has changed over the last decade?

Yasmin: Oh, it’s weird because I feel like in some ways I think we’re just kind of, like, in a prolonged Groundhog Day. I think– Compared to, like, other orientations, like, if you were to take, like, I don’t know, like, the Trans Community, for example, and think about, you know, things were probably better for them 10 years ago in a weird way than it is now. Like, I feel like, public consciousness and perception and opinions has changed drastically and not in the best way towards them. And I think for asexuality we’re still in such a kind of 101 stage, I think, that I think that the majority of public perception hasn’t changed that much. I bet if I was to have done this exact same survey that we did for my research like 10 years ago, I bet the results probably wouldn’t have been that different. I bet people would have been like, “I’m not mad at it, but also fix them.”

Yasmin: So I think we’re kind of in a strange place, but I do think that, you know, there has been, at least among certain demographics, more awareness in that I don’t know if I could have– I could do the work that I’m doing now 10 years ago. I don’t know how interested people would be. I think that if you look at, like, the timeline of asexual activism and visibility, there was like a peak in, like, the early– like this time 20 years ago, literally. Like mid-2000s. And then it kind of, like, dwindled off in, like, the 2010s kind of. And then it kind of, like, picked back up again. So I think that now we’re at a time culturally where we’re talking about sexuality a lot more and in a much more diverse way. It lends to people being a bit more aware and considering it more than we were 10 years ago. But I also think that we are still in a very early stage. So things have gotten better, but, like, not as much as you would have anticipated looking at other conversations in comparison.

Courtney: What’s one issue that affects us that you wish more people understood?

Yasmin: I guess, specifically thinking about the asexual and aromantic community, I think just kind of like– I don’t know, I guess maybe the– the sort of psychological aspects. Like I think, you know, some things that the Ace Community survey found, for example, in that, like, our rates of things like depression and anxiety are kind of equal– higher than average compared to, like, straight people, but equally on par kind of to that of like the wider Queer Community. And you know the wider Queer Community there are many, like, mental health charities and stuff, and initiatives and stuff, specifically targeted to that, that don’t really extend to the Asexual Community in the same way. Because we still have the pathologization aspect.

Yasmin: And so we’re just kind of, like, left in this weird kind of, like, limbo where I think that there are a lot of mental health issues in the community that aren’t stemming from us being asexual. It’s not the cause of us being asexual. But when people think about mental health and asexuality they just see it as being like, “Oh, you’re on SSRIs and that’s what’s made you asexual.” People just take it from there, not considering that, you know, the impact of like allonormativity and heteronormativity and all those things can be direct contributing factors to why we have these, like, lower life satisfactions and all of these other things that, like, data has found. Even the government’s data found that we had lower life satisfaction than other orientations.

Yasmin: But I feel like people just haven’t really, like, considered that or dug into that more. I guess maybe that’s something I should do in the next research project. But, um, yeah. So I kind of wish people would kind of, like, consider that and kind of make more adjustments for us in that sense. Because I feel like it’s as much of a widespread issue for us as it is for everybody else, but we don’t have the same resources applied.

Courtney: Yeah. It’s really interesting that you say that, because that got me to thinking. Because the medicalization and the pathologization is something I think about a lot, read about, talk about a lot. But one sort of strange crossover that I would actually really like social scientists and psychologists to draw the connection to actually comes from the current reigning theories on porn addiction or the fact that it’s not really a thing. There’s sort of a widespread, like, science stopped believing that porn addiction is really a thing. And what they actually tend to refer to it now, people who self-report that they have problems with pornography, they’re suggesting that we ought to call that PPMI, or pornography problems due to moral incongruence. So they’re talking about people who have come from very religious upbringings, very sexually conservative households and cultures and societies. So they’re saying, “You are not literally addicted to porn, this is not literally an issue. The problems you perceive yourself having are coming from moral incongruence.”

Courtney: And that sort of sparked something in me where I was saying, you know, this is sort of like how asexual people do tend to have a lower life satisfaction and way too many people, including in psychology, are too quick to jump to, like, “Well, yeah, because sex is great, sex is healthy. People should be having sex. If you aren’t having it, it’s a problem.” And it’s like, actually, if the asexuality isn’t an issue, then that lower life satisfaction should actually be attributed to something like, not moral incongruence, but perhaps social incongruence. Like the way we are living our lives is not what society expects of us, and whether we’re getting outside pressure from society to change, or if it’s internal pressure, just because we see what the world around us is like and we know we don’t necessarily fit into that. I think that is a much better way of framing it. Because often the sort of latest change to DSM to a halfway attempt to say that, you know, these– basically so that they aren’t saying asexuality is a disorder, they’ll say, like you know–

Yasmin: They always emphasize distress, I find.

Courtney: They always emphasize distress, yes!

Yasmin: Which is an issue still. Because I remember when I was I was doing this thing and I was talking to this endocrinologist who does work of Hypoactive Sexual Desire Disorder, we were kind of both agreeing that one of the issues with the distress characteristic is that, you know, if you rewind 40, 50 years and you have a new look at homosexuality, for example, if you were to say the criteria of what makes it an illness isn’t that you’re sexually attracted to men, it’s like you’re sexually attracted to men and you’re distressed by it, lots of people were distressed by it.

Courtney: Yes.

Courtney: Yasming:

Courtney: Because society made them feel distressed by it.

Courtney: Yes, exactly.

Yasmin: So that in itself still isn’t like a really big distinction. Lots of asexual people I know are distressed by it. Some aren’t, some are. Some, you know, do feel like, “I have had society tell me I’m not gonna live a fulfilling life. Nobody’s gonna love you. You’re really weird.” Like these are messaging that you get. So if you then say, “Well, if you’re distressed by this thing, then that means you’re sick.” It’s like, well, that doesn’t– You know, there are issues with that as well. So I feel like it’s just applying the exact same logic they do with other sexualities. Like, nowadays we see that there’s mental health issues in the Gay Community, but we don’t go, “Oh well, it’s because they’re gay, that’s the problem.” You say, “Oh, it’s because of society, that’s the problem.” But for asexuality, people don’t even like really tackle that very much. So yeah, that’s an issue I think should be spoken about.

Courtney: Yeah. And I think it’s fascinating that the– the most modern schools of thought in psychology are like, “It’s not porn addiction, it’s just society telling you it’s wrong.” And yet they aren’t applying that same logic to asexuality. Because all the language is still like: as long as you aren’t distressed, that’s fine, you’re probably asexual, but if you are distressed, you might have a psychological disorder. So it’s interesting that the language evolves when sex is still the positive thing and this is a positive way to express your sexuality. But yeah. I don’t know. So that’s something I’ve been thinking of. So what you just said reminded me of that.

Royce: Okay, this next question comes from an ace social scientist, and they are curious if you’ve come across any online spaces where ace people or ace advocates can gather and talk about research that’s being done.

Yasmin: Ooh…

Royce: Research on asexuality specifically.

Yasmin: I’m probably the wrong person to ask about that [laughs] because I probably wouldn’t be in it. I mean, there must be, I would imagine. I mean, I feel like, um, like you know, when I talk to, like, Sarah, like she knows other, like, ace people in science. And you know, there’s Aces in STEM, there you go. There’s asexual people working in STEM that are probably doing some kind of research into something that may or may not be relevant to what we’re talking about specifically. But I feel like these things probably do exist. I’m just probably not in it.

Courtney: Yeah, there, there. I honestly do wish there was more that were sort of more focused on these specific things. And that’s honestly something we were trying to do with ACAR for a while. Because we would have book clubs to discuss Sherronda J. Brown’s book. We started still, like, reading clubs for shorter form things, articles, papers. Unfortunately that Discord does not exist anymore, but I don’t know what they do for dedicated reading groups.

Courtney: But if you are interested in talking to more scientists who may be more in tune with these things, or interested in starting something up, if they aren’t already doing it for a reading group, definitely check out Aces in STEM. That is a Discord group run by our friend, Sarah Cosgriff. You can reach out to her to get the link to that. You can find her social media pretty easily by searching her name. And I’ll put something in the description as well, so you can reach out and get that if that’s of interest to you. But that’s the only one I’d think of as well. Because a lot of other Ace groups are just very general, very forum, comment, open discussion, and not really dedicated. Here’s a thing we’re talking about, here’s a topic.

Courtney: [reading] “So in the previous interview you delved into racism in the Queer Community. Vice versa, there can also be queerphobia in our racial communities. I personally have had a hard time finding aspec friendly people in the Asian American community, so I would be curious to hear your experience being queer in the Black community and how you’ve dealt with any pushback.

Yasmin: I mean, I guess, for me, again this is gonna sound bad, but like the way I don’t talk to people online, I don’t talk to people that much in real life either. Like, again, my– I need to work on my social life for real. [Courtney laughs] Like it’s– I just, like, work a lot and I talk to people in, like, work things, and I just go home and hibernate, and then just come back out. And also, I guess for me, I wasn’t, you know, like I wasn’t from, like, a bigger city and being, like, the kind of alternative, like, metalhead it didn’t lend to Black people wanting to hang out with me very much. So I think, you know, socially speaking, I can’t say that I – you know – usually had like a big Black friendship group or that. Even in my work now, like, I can, like, count on like two hands how many times I’ve had the chance to do things in like the Black community or Black platforms or even in like Black queer spaces.

Yasmin: Me being, like, not from London and asexual and just looking weird hasn’t really done me any favors in that. So I feel like my only experiences are probably, I guess, sort of just, like, personal life, like, family adjacent. And I feel like– I mean, I feel like most Black communities are just more conservative in general, like a lot more religious, regardless of whether you’re, like, I don’t know from, like an African country, or like I’m Trinidadian or like wherever you’re from. I think that’s like a universal consensus. I think African-Americans are pretty religious, Black people in the UK are pretty religious. And so I think conversations about queerness in general isn’t really as much of a thing, let alone asexuality.

Yasmin: But I think that a lot of people, at least in my observation, they perceived asexuality as being– as me just being very, like, well behaved and, like, not being fast and, like, not being promiscuous. And so just perceive me as being like a well behaved, straight person. And the reception became less positive upon realizing that I’m actually not a straight person at all. I’m actually not sexually attracted to men at all. And even though I’m not sexually attracted to women, that doesn’t really make it that much better. In fact, if I was sexually attracted to women, at least I might be somewhat more relatable in that sense.

Yasmin: So yeah, I mean, I’ve definitely kind of had things where people are just like– I don’t know, they were just kind of, like, lumping in with queerness in general and they’re not really into queer things, so they don’t like it, tends to be more my experience. But yeah, maybe that’s another thing I need to work on more this year. Do more– do more Black things. But it’s somewhat beyond my control. But yeah, I haven’t had as much experience in, like, predominantly Black spaces because I don’t really live in that kind of town, unfortunately.

Royce: This next question is asking a little bit about the specifics of your identities, both being asexual and aromantic. They want to know: do you consider those like two distinct sort of identities or orientations, or are they kind of the same? Do you think that, like, one of them is maybe like a primary, secondary, are you more impacted by one or the other? And they’re also curious about goals for activism. Are there any challenges in getting people to understand or be aware of aromanticism over asexuality? Given that they’re closely tied together but still kind of distinct groups with their own concerns.

Yasmin: Yeah, I mean, it’s a good question. I feel like in terms of my, like, initial life experience, they’ve kind of just blended into one. Like, I didn’t really use the term aromantic until I actually met people in the asexual community and realized that not only asexual people are aromantic. I kind of assumed that– well, I mean the first asexual people I met when I was like 15 were a homoromantic couple, but I kind of assumed they were an anomaly, and that the majority of asexual people would be aromantic was my thoughts as a teenager. Because I was like, if you take the sex out of romantic relationships and aren’t you just like really good friends? Like, why would we use other words? I didn’t really get it at that age. It wasn’t until, like, I just started meeting people and I was like, “Oh damn, actually I feel like I might be a bit of a minority. I kind of assumed that everybody was thinking the same way.” And so, yeah, I was– I didn’t really start using the term aromantic until, I guess, you know, the activism started really. But then I wasn’t really out and using the term asexual that much either, to be fair.

Yasmin: But yeah, so I guess for me my perceptions of asexuality and aromanticism just kind of blended into one, for the most part as a teenager, discovering this at like 15 and then pretty much being in the closet until my early 20s anyway. But it’s weird because I feel like, societally speaking, your romantic orientation makes more of a difference than your sexual orientation. Because that’s the one people are actually seeing, as they say, you know, no one actually knows what you’re doing in the bedroom. But people do see the person you’re walking down the street with. People see the person you’re marrying. They see the person you’re having a family with. Like it’s people’s romantic attractions and interactions that you actually visibly see more than their sexual orientation in a sense.

Yasmin: So in that sense I feel like technically it makes more of a difference to my lived experience. But then our society is founded upon prioritizing your sexual orientation, terminology-wise. Like, demographically, it’s what is your sexuality, it’s not what is your aromatic orientation. And that’s kind of the reason why I tend to lead with asexuality more and I talk about it more because, like, it’s harder to initiate a conversation on the basis of romantic orientation without then explaining that whole concept and distinguishing between the two and blah, blah, blah. So that’s why I lead with asexuality. But yeah, so, I think it’s–

Yasmin: As to whether– which one’s easier to talk about, asexuality is. Because people are talking about sexuality more and people are talking about romance within those conversations inherently, so both of them do end up coming up. It just might not be what I’m like leading with. Like, I feel like when people are like, “Oh, you don’t talk about aromanticism that much.” It’s like I feel like I do a lot. It’s just not as explicit. But if you read between the lines, that is what I’m talking about. But then there’s also been times, especially like in February, when there’s, like, Valentines, or certain places that are very interested in, you know, living life without romantic love and blah, blah, blah. So in those kinds of settings it is easier to kind of lead with aromanticism. Like I think recently I’ve ended up doing a lot more–Like I’ve been asked to do more, like, philosophical panels, and those topics are never about sexuality, it’s always about romantic love and the concept of love and all that kind of thing.

Yasmin: So yeah, it kind of depends on the setting. But yeah, it’s definitely easier to do activism around asexuality just because it is a type of sexuality and all of our legislation and all of our information is sexuality first. But that doesn’t– But I also feel like in many ways, even in me doing that, I think if I was asexual and not aromantic, it would have been more beneficial for me in lots of settings. Because I think, as a girl, people love to, like, talk about your romantic experiences and your romantic dramas. And like, that’s kind of like– That would be a really easy media hook. And I often get asked to do that and when I’m like, “I don’t have anything to say.” They’re like that– They’re not interested in talking about it from an aromantic perspective of getting that in there. They just wanted to know about your being asexual and struggling to date is kind of the only thing that they were interested in. So yeah, I don’t know if that answered the question, but hopefully.

Royce: No, I think that’s good.

Courtney: Yeah, and it is interesting because when you say like, “For me it always kind of was one in the same,” I think there are aroace people that absolutely feel that way, and then there are aroace people who do feel like, “These are two separate and distinct parts of me.” And that gets into incredible nuances that we won’t get into today about the split attraction model and people who do or do not identify with it. But I always think it’s important to hear firsthand from individual people, and not in this, “I am trying to teach the public that these are two very separate, distinct things.” Because it’s not always for everybody in every single situation. And I always think personal experiences are very important, and hearing from real life people and how they interpret their own identities. Which might be good for the next question because I have some thoughts on it, but we’ll hear your thoughts first. How can we overcome the misunderstanding that asexual equals non-sexual?

Yasmin: I mean, I guess it’s– it’s just through, like, education really. But then I also– Like, I’m always– Like, literally the etymology of the word causes confusion, right? Like if you look at anything like, you know, asocial or like it usually means the absence of something. And like that is kind of like the phrasing of the word. So I can understand why people see the word asexual and they assume it means no sexuality. Like I understand where that comes from. And for some people that is how they use the word, so I’m not mad at that entirely. Yeah, I think it just kind of comes down to understanding the most general definition that people use, the most widely accepted definition, but then also kind of being– I think the main thing is also just kind of like being careful with how much you emphasize or de-emphasize certain things as not to make some people feel like, I don’t know, excluded in some way. Because I feel like then that also becomes a very big conversation that we’ve all seen within the Asexual Community abou. And I know that– I don’t know, the media can swerve two ways with it, because I think that they always just kind of need, like, the most hyperbolic, extreme examples.

Yasmin: So it’s either like being asexual and having loads of sex, or I’m asexual, and like never have sex and I hate sex, or whatever. And then they might be both of those people’s experiences. But it’s also like very– It’s just emphasizing very different ends of the spectrum, and I think for most things, it’s a lot more nuanced than that. So I do think that, you know, we kind of need to be careful with that and not, I don’t know, I guess, trying to make it seem like it would be weird if you were the very non-sexual type of asexual person. But also making it clear that, you know, there is more to sexuality than sexual attraction. And I think a lot of people don’t really think about it like that. Like I would describe it like masturbation as being a sexual thing, and lots of asexual people do that. So to say that asexuality is non-sexual would be incorrect.

Yasmin: But then for some people that is what it means. So you know there’s lots of nuances with it. But I think, yeah, it just kind of comes down to education about the nuances between, like, lots of people don’t even think about what’s the difference between libido and attraction and your orientation. And all of these kind of different– And your romantic orientation or any of these things. And I think that’s kind of where the confusion comes from, because people just see the word and they just kind of come up with a whole lot of assumptions from it.

Courtney: Yeah, very well said. And you got some of my thoughts out there beautifully as well. Because I think there is always, 100% of the time, going to be harm when you take a general definition and apply it to individual people. Because if someone says to me– Like, if I say, like, “I am not sexual,” and someone’s like, “Well, actually that’s not what asexual means.” I’d be like, “No, I’m not sexual.” Me, personally, I am not. So I am totally okay with that definition being used to me. But I’m also going to say like, that’s not the case for everybody. Even the– Since we’ve talked about definitions and since we had the AVEN question earlier, for those unfamiliar, the current definition listed on the AVEN website is: an asexual person is a person who does not experience sexual attraction.

Courtney: That has been amended and announced to be amended to: a person who experiences little to no sexual attraction. So that sort of becomes the soundbite that people use and the talking points that you get in online conversations all the time trying to educate people. But sometimes I found that to be a very limiting definition as well. Because if I say I don’t have any desire for sex because I’m asexual, sometimes people will be like, “But that’s not what asexual means. It means attraction not desire, or it means attraction not action.” Attraction not action is one that people say a lot. Because it rhymes and it’s fun to rhyme, I get that.

Yasmin: But it’s also a very individual– Because for some people it’s like, well then– people might say to me, “Well, you know you could still have sex.” It’s like, for me not being sexually attracted to someone drastically decreases my interest.

Courtney: Yeah, that is actually–

Yasmin: But that’s not the same for everybody.

Courtney: Like that actually is a big part of my orientation and my experience.

Yasmin: Yes, like I’m one of those people where, if it’s like, “Oh well, you’re really hungry and here’s some food,” but it’s not the food I was in the mood to eat, I’m not going to eat it, I’ll stay hungry. I’m one of those people. I’ll just stay hungry. But other people would just eat the food. So you know it’s different for everybody.

Courtney: Yeah, absolutely so. I think emphasizing diversity and fluidity in every level of approaching individuals where they’re at, and educating on the spectrum and communities, I think is always a good thing.

Royce: If you could pick one, what would you say is the biggest issue in the Ace Community?

Yasmin: Ooh. [sighs] Personally, I feel like people talking in circles. That’s going to sound bad. I’m probably going to get in trouble for saying that. But to me personally, I feel like people talk about things that aren’t important a lot, and I get it. Like, you know, not everyone needs to be a freaking freedom fighter or whatever, but I do feel like there’s a reason why every other marginalized community has more going on. It’s because more people are mobilized to do something and they’re not sitting around talking about what does gay mean for five hours out of the day.

Yasmin: And I think that we do spend a lot of time arguing about things that make no discernible difference in the grand scheme of things. And we spend a lot of time cherry picking things when people actually are trying to do something that is good and useful and constructive. And I don’t think that there is enough coordination going on. And I say that as someone who lone-wolf’s it, I know I’m also not coordinating either. But if people had been more welcoming in the first place, then I might have coordinated with them. And I’m sure you can vouch for that too.

Courtney: I can.

Yasmin: So, yeah, I feel like that’s kind of one of our problems. Everyone’s, you know– And that’s– I remember that being part of the reason why I approached Stonewall in the first place, or why I started the activism in the first place. I was sitting around waiting for somebody else to do it, thinking– thinking somebody at some point must do, right? And then I’m looking around like, “Oh, we’re still debating this micro label? Still? We’re still talking about Bojack Horseman? Okay.” But in the meantime, anything else guys? Come on. So, yeah, I just feel like there’s a lack of mobilization, but there’s a big desire for change that no one actually wants to do anything and no one wants to be the one to stick their head up above the precipice and, you know, do any other thing. So I think that, in my opinion, I think that’s one of our bigger problems.

Courtney: I do not disagree. [chuckles] How has your family reacted to your activism and visibility, and have they been supportive amidst the waves of hatred you unfortunately encounter?

Yasmin: Um, yeah, I mean, I feel like in terms of, like, immediate family, like my mom, like very supportive and very chill. I think one thing people need to keep in mind of, like, my journey with this is that I did not let– For a start, people didn’t know I was asexual for ages, and second, people didn’t know I was doing anything in the public facing sphere really until it was already, like, headline worthy. And by that point people were like, “Oh, but if it’s in this magazine or if it’s in this publication or whatever, then it must be okay,” like it must be cool. So that kind of like, I think, sped up people’s acceptance of it.

Yasmin: I was literally just talking to my mom about this before, about how, like, I have relatives that always– they’re the first to like my posts and they’re always like, “Oh my God!” Like, “So cool.” And then, like, never talked to me in person. So I’m like– And I know lots of people that are kind of like that so, I feel like, like you know, I think everybody thinks it’s cool, everybody thinks it’s different, but I don’t talk to that many people. And that many people don’t talk to me in general in life, so it’s kind of hard to gauge. I think when it kind of comes to like the hate part, I think everyone is just so used to it. Like, literally no one in my life aside from, like, maybe my mom knows or cares. Like, no one, like, even asked, they’re not even like– It’s just such a normal thing. It’s not even like, “Are you okay?” It’s just like, hey, you know, like it doesn’t even come up.

Courtney: It’s just another Tuesday.

Yasmin: It really is. Sometimes I’m like, “Damn, you can ask a little bit,” but no. People, like, don’t– It doesn’t really even register to most people. I think people are more focused on, like, the glitzy parts and don’t really notice the other parts of it so much. But yeah, I would say, in terms of immediate family, a pretty support– are pretty supportive. But I don’t talk to, like, on a, like, a consistent, regular basis– I don’t talk to that many people in general. I feel like I sound very asocial in the way I’m talking. I do see people. I do like people, but I’m just not one of those people that needs to talk to people very consistently to like them.

Royce: Do you have a favorite non-ace-related photo shoot that you’ve done?

Yasmin: Ooh, I mean, I feel like a lot of my photo shoots are non-ace related. They just become ace related when they come out because people connect them together. I mean, I’ve done one when I was wearing an outfit that was made of upcycled cork. That was pretty cool. And I did one– Actually, to be fair, it did end up being ace related when it came out because we used it in Vogue Greece when I was– when it was talking about asexuality. But it was actually– When we initially took it wasn’t for Vogue Greece and I was wearing this, like– Actually I think that was one of the things I got in trouble for on Twitter. It was like this giant, like, tube, like, big fluffy tube dress. It almost looked like a giant deconstructed teddy bear. It was so heavy and after I wore it I kept seeing it everywhere. I’m not saying because– it was everywhere because I wore it.

Yasmin: But I remember seeing like the girls in, like, Little Mix were wearing it, and like a photo shoot, and then it was on this advert. And I was like, “That’s the tube! Fluffy tube dress!” Like, I was like, oh, I didn’t realize it was– the dress is gonna be that much of a thing. But yeah, I wore that in like a Vogue Greece shoot. And I did like that. Just, it was so freaking weird. Like I’ve never seen a giant fluffy tube dress. Had to be pinned [Courtney laughs] to me in like 100 places. It was a cumbersome thing. So I think in the final shot I’m sitting down because it was so damn heavy. But like I did enjoy that one, just because it was like a very couture outfit for me. I think it was worth like over 5,000£ or something for that.

Courtney: Wow. Oh fashion. Speaking of modeling, we had a question about pin-up. What are your opinions regarding pin-up photography in art? Does it objectify, commodify or dehumanize women? How do you retain your humanity through it?

Yasmin: I mean it’s always– I mean– Not just– I guess this applies to not really just pin-ups, I guess too. Because I mean, I feel like there’s male pin-up too. I think people associate it with women but like the beefcakes that’s pin-up technically. Like the beefy beach guys and the bulging muscles and like the super cheesy– Like that’s technically pin-up in a sense. And it is supposed to be very kind of, I guess, cheesy and like exaggerated forms of masculinity and femininity. Want tiny waist? You want the big muscles? You want– Like all of those kinds of things. And it’s kind of campy and fun. Like I quite like– I’ve modeled some pin-up. You probably have more experience being cinched into a corset than I do, but it’s always fun to see how much you can squish your organs before you faint. So I do find it quite interesting. Getting the hair right is the only reason why I’m not big on pin-up, because it’s such a skill to do the pin-up wave thing.

Yasmin: But yeah, I mean I feel like the thing about objectification, I feel like there are so many different levels to it and so many different things that kind of have to, like, fall into place. Or like that it’s impossible to avoid that. So like, me in my life, I do not try to avoid sexualization. I do not try to avoid objectification. Because I don’t think it’s possible. ’Cause it’s always like there’s your intention, there’s a photographer’s intention, there’s the viewer’s intention, there’s the product’s intention. You could say the corset is designed to give you an hourglass shape to make men think you’re attractive. So it’s like, well, that’s not my intention in wearing it, but you could say that the garment has made that. Does that outweigh the intention of the model and the photographer? Or if the photographer is trying to objectify you, does that outweigh the intention of the model and the audience who are viewing it? Like, I feel like there are way too many layers to kind of, like, avoid that.

Yasmin: I think that retaining your humanity is, again, that’s also layered. I think that comes down to is the audience retaining your humanity? Because it’s kind of on them. If they want to see you as being not a real person, you can’t help that. But at the same time, I think, you know, having some sense of personal agency retains your humanity. I think having a photographer that understands your humanity helps with that too. So I feel like there are just so many different facets to it that you kind of need multiple things to make it happen, and thus I worry way less about it. Because it’s impossible to make sure every single thing aligns in order to avoid the thing. So I’m always just like, if you want to do the thing, do the thing. Just do the thing wisely, is my message.

Courtney: Yeah, that– that– that resonates with me. Because, I mean, I’ve mentioned on this podcast and to you that I had a brief stint as a lingerie model as well, and it just wasn’t for me. I’ve done various modeling of different types at random places throughout my life but, honestly, one of my favorite photo shoots I ever had was specifically a pin-up shoot. And it was all, like, Beetlejuice themed. I was like– I was–

Yasmin: Oh, I can see that for you.

Courtney: Like femme fatale Beetlejuice. And they had the whole Beetlejuice set and all these props. And it was so fun, because everyone– everyone on that set was like, from the person doing my hair, makeup, the actual photographers, the people bringing out wardrobe options, they were all so amazing. They were all these very feminist women, and it was such a comfortable, safe place to take these photos. More so than I got when I was modeling lingerie. And like the pin-up photography place was right next door to our local, like, vintage fashion shop. Which– Since I– You mentioned corsets.

Courtney: I have a weird relationship with corsets. Because my body is very naturally hourglass already. Sometimes exaggerated to the case where I need, like, a custom made corset, because a corset will not actually cinch me more than my waist already is, if it fits my rib cage or my hips or if it’s an over bust. So it’s complicated for me. But if I ever need, like, a casual outfit, because normally I’m out here and just being way too extra with long gowns, but if I need a casual outfit for, like, a short dress, I go to the vintage shop and I basically get a little pin-up dress. Because those are kind of designed for bodies that look like mine. So I have the best luck shopping for clothes like that. And find something that fits me without needing to alter it too dramatically. So I’m– I’m very pro pin-up for that reason.

Royce: What would you say is the best piece of advice you’ve received? And that could be about something ace related or just in general.

Yasmin: Ooh, that was hard for me because I feel like no one ever gives me advice. Maybe I just give the vibe that I don’t need it. But I remember I was doing a panel once, and everyone was talking about like advice they’d been given, and like mentors they’d work with and like help they’ve had. I was sitting there like, “You’ve had help?” [Courtney laughs] Must be nice. But yeah, like, I literally– I wish I could get– I just kind of have to give myself advice and hope for the best. I think it’s one of those things where what you’re doing has like no blueprint and there aren’t that many other people doing it. Like most people don’t even get it enough to want to give advice. So I wish– I really haven’t had any. I wish I had.

Courtney: Yeah, same, honestly. I kind of felt that way about just, like, media representation as well. I know it’s so meaningful to a lot of people, but I have so many weird niche identities that I never saw even fractions of them represented on a screen or on a page growing up. So for so long that I don’t even feel like I need it, because I had to just live without having it, so I just got used to not having it, so.

Yasmin: Yeah, that’s actually what I say. But then I– Like, I might, like, try and be like, “You shouldn’t need it.” But I’m also like– I don’t know. For me, as someone who never, I don’t know, had the privilege of even seeing like Black people on TV when I was younger, or alternative people really, or anything, especially not Black and alternative people, let alone asexual people, it’s like you just kind of grow used to it. It’s like I’ve never been like, oh, I need to – I don’t know – associate my sense of worth based on whether it’s reaffirmed by a TV show or something, because if I did that then I would feel terrible every day of my life because it never happened.

Courtney: Yeah, so with representation, heroes, mentors, I– I absolutely feel you there. What is your favorite part of being ace/aro and what is your least favorite part?

Yasmin: I guess, favorite part, is that I probably wouldn’t be doing what I’m doing if I wasn’t ace or aro. And I do enjoy what I’m doing, even though it is tiring, it doesn’t always go well, I do have some pretty cool experiences that I probably wouldn’t have had otherwise. So I guess that’s my favorite thing. Being able to make some kind of like– I feel like, you know, just in life, you should just try and make any– Leave the– a little positive impact on the world whatever you’re doing. Regardless of your job, regardless of your identity. And this kind of allowed me to do that in some way. So I guess that’s my favorite thing. Least favorite thing, I guess, it’s kind of similar to what I said about there being absolutely no blueprint.

Yasmin: I think that, you know, some other people, they’re like, “Okay, I’ll be this age when I get a boyfriend. I’ll be this age when I get a baby. I’ll be this age when I get married. And like this is probably how my life’s gonna look, because this is what’s been happening for centuries and centuries and, you know, there’s– society is set up for that to be how my life goes and there are things in place for that.” Whereas, I don’t even know what I’m doing, like, next month, like in general. Like every time people are like, “What are you doing this year?” It’s like, on the sixth when people go back to work, I’ll know what the hell’s going on.

Yasmin: Until then, I genuinely do not know what is happening in my life. I can– It’s hard to plan ahead. I have no idea what’s going on. It’s very hard for me to set plans or goals because I’m like, it’s kind of in other people’s hands a lot of the time. So I think that’s kind of one of the more stressful things about it. But also one of the more exciting things, because I’m like, “Who knows what’s going to happen!” It could be a good thing. It could be a bad thing, but it could be a good thing. So, yeah.

Royce: Okay, we’re getting pretty late into the recording and I have to read this one: in your opinion – quote – “should Yasmin Benoit burn for eternity?”

Yasmin: [laughs] And what I love about that one is that person sent that to me, like, multiple times. They were like, “I need an answer to this question.”

Courtney: They’re dying to know!

Yasmin: They are dying to know.

Courtney: Answer– Answer their burning question.

Yasmin: I mean, isn’t that up to some kind of higher being? Am I the one to decide? I think maybe you two should decide. I’m like, should I decide about myself? Do I–? Should I burn for eternity? I mean, hell sounds like a bit of a party, to be fair. I feel like, if I had–

Courtney: I think it’s up to your interpretation of what hell is or is not, yeah.

Yasmin: I mean, I feel like if I’m at the gates of heaven or whatever and they’re like, “You’re not our type, you’re going down,” then it must be funner down there. So, I’m down.

Courtney: We– we are close personal friends with Satan, and in fact Satan has been on this podcast, so [chuckles] I’m sure they’d love to have you. And it will.

Yasmin: Yeah, I mean, I’ve already got the wardrobe for it. I’ve got so many inverted crosses, pentagrams, black metal t-shirts. Like, I’m all ready– I’m ready, ready to go.

Courtney: We’ve got a couple. So let’s get one last, like, really big question out of the way and then we’ll do a couple just little silly rapid fire ones to end it out. So–

Yasmin: Yeah.

Courtney: I’m going to try to edit this down. We got a lot of backstory from this one, but I’ll lead with the main question first, is–

Yasmin: Oh, is this one going to get me in trouble?

Courtney: No, no, no, no. It’s– It’s– To me, I imagine this is primarily about asexual training in the workplace, which is very in line, very in line with your work. So the question itself is: do you think that it could be worthwhile to take into consideration possible asexuality for arbitrators and mediators while training those who might have to deal with matters of sexual harassment and/or assault? So the person asking this question, for backstory, in their work ended up needing to be the one, the point person, that people come to if there is an issue of sexual harassment or sexual assault. And it occurred to them, in reading through some of these reports, “That people are feeling something that I am not feeling. So I don’t even understand what could motivate someone to exhibit these behaviors or have these feelings.” And so this person seems to be from a country where maybe, like, human resources, is not necessarily an established office within a larger community. So they– they don’t seem to have that like HR training you’d normally expect. So what are your thoughts on that?

Yasmin: I mean, I definitely think it’s an important area. Oh, I’m going to get myself in trouble again by saying this, but I know recently I kind of ended up doing a thing with– you know how I was saying about how, like, my local Pride and, like, the local police, there’s like overlaps. I was doing some stuff with my local Pride, and they had some of the local people that worked for the police that handled like sexual assault cases and like things like that. And they were kind of doing some work over consent and educating young people about consent in an intersectional way. Taking into account all the different things that impact different orientations. And I kind of managed to get asexuality into that conversation as well. Especially since I think, within the ace community, like things like consent and being in sexual relationships when you’re asexual with a partner who’s not asexual, like, I feel like there’s many things that, like, we talk about, that people outside of the community don’t really know about. And also knowing about things, like, corrective rape and sexual assault, and how those impact asexual people to different frequencies and in different ways.

Yasmin: I definitely think that that is a conversation that should be happening in those spaces. Which is why I lended my two cents to that consent training. Even though they were technically police, but I think it was useful. But yeah. But I think that even outside of like police that are handling that, I mean there’s charities that handle that kind of thing. We have some in the UK that are specifically to do with sexual assaults and domestic violence, and they actually discovered quite a few, like, asexuality came up in some of their corrective rape cases. So I do think that, you know, regardless of where you’re working or what environment you’re in, that is an important conversation to be having. Because it does impact people in different ways based on what your intersections are, and you need different support. And I feel like there needs to be an extra layer of understanding if you’re going to help them deal with the psychological effects and not just like the “is this person going to jail” effects, like moving forward beyond that. So, yeah, I do think that that is an important thing for, like, various stages of where they are the mediators or like whichever part. I think that that is something that should be included in most sexual assault related training. And also, you know, counseling and that kind of support as well.

Courtney: Yeah, absolutely. Because this– this listener was saying, you know, as the point person, I had a training but the training I got was assuming a basic – the way I interpret it – an allonormative understanding of sexual behavior and desire. And so, as the point person dealing with these things is saying, like, even the training I’m getting doesn’t apply to me. So I just think it’s an every level thing. It should be incorporated into every level of training around this for everyone who could be affected.

Yasmin: Yeah, it’s just getting to, like, those people and kind of getting that– encouraging them to do that. Because people, they don’t even think of it. They don’t think of it as something that they need to be doing until you get it on their radar. So it’s kind of like raising that with people before they’re like, “Oh damn, we’re missing something.” And some people won’t care that they’re missing something, but some people will. And if they do, then I feel like that should be capitalized on.

Courtney: All right, we got a few– few short questions. Let’s try to get this all out here. Is there an issue with male representation in the asexual community?

Yasmin: Oh, it depends on which way we’re talking. It’s hard because, again, so much of our stuff is online. You can’t really tell at a glance who is.

Courtney: Sometimes yeah.

Yasmin: Like, unless they specifically– You can’t necessarily, unless people are putting like their pronouns in their bios, you can’t really tell, like, what gender people are if you’re just, like, looking at a comment that pops up or something. So it is hard to gauge. I feel like, I mean, I feel like this is something we’ve kind of touched upon before. I don’t know whether it was on this or just in general that, like, even though statistically ace men, they’re– like men are less likely to openly identify as asexual. I don’t believe that’s because there are less ace men. I think that there’s other reasons for that. But yet our representation externally tends to be much more male dominated in terms of, like, prevalence and acceptance and palatability and all those things.

Yasmin: So I feel like, I guess, in a non– in the interpersonal way there is an issue, because I feel like men are less more likely to be out and are less more likely to feel like they can talk about it, and I wish that that was something that was different. Because they are out there for sure. I remember once there was like a study that was like there are no asexual men. And I was like, interpersonally, I’ve met more asexual men than women, I think. At least like the first part of my work within the community. But online, you would assume, looking at like content creators, you’d think it was more women, but then looking at media stuff, you would think it was more men. So it’s very, it’s a little kind of different for that. But yeah, I do think that there is an issue in some ways.

Courtney: Yeah, and I would add to that not enough representation for ace trans men. That’s been a huge thing I’ve mentioned repeatedly.

Yasmin: There’s not enough representation for trans men in general.

Courtney: Right, right. Exactly.

Yasmin: I think some people forget trans men exist.

Courtney: So, yes, that I would say, is the biggest issue for representation within our community. I’m curious if this is something you’ve thought about or bumped up against, because we sort of touched on in part one that the religious culture is not quite the same where you are as it is where we are. But someone did ask how can we challenge religious purity culture from an asexual perspective?

Yasmin: Oh, I mean, I guess first we’re going to sort out our own house. And we’re gonna– [chuckles] The little bit of purity culture in the Ace Community too. I noticed when my Playboy thing dropped. It wasn’t just people that were outside of the community that were mad at that. There are people that were like, “This is not how we should be represented. She looks like such a slut,” that was the gist of their things. Like she’s super sexual, like, why would she–? Why– I don’t want to be, like, represented by that. It’s like, oh, you do it then, but they won’t. So yeah, I feel like we got to work on that part.

Yasmin: But then also, again, it varies country to country. I feel like in the UK we don’t really have as much of a purity culture. We’re not– We’re much more a secular country. There are other European countries that are not secular, and I know the US, you should be, but you’re not. So that varies quite a lot. But I think that it just kind of comes down to, I guess, challenging, I guess, just purity culture in general. Like not even specifically from an ace perspective, but just from the sense of I feel like we’re at a place in society where I don’t think we should be condemning people for how pure we perceive them. And I think that that will inherently have a knock on effect to the Ace Community and benefit the whole Queer Community, I think. And then we got to work on our own purity issues within the Ace Community as well.

Courtney: Oh yeah, absolutely. And for that, asker, if you are really curious about those intersections and what we do think and try to do to combat that, we have so many episodes where we talk about it from a US perspective, if that’s what you’re interested in looking at. Because our US purity culture is very heavily tied into our politics. And so we absolutely have high level politicians who will outright say, like, asexual marriage is not legal, nor should it be, because that’s the bottom of the barrel of a slippery slope. And so there are people who will outright attack our marriage because they’re like, “It’s not a real marriage if it’s not sexual.” And so we talk about that all the time. So you can find some of our old episodes on things like that and our thoughts. Royce, you should give us these last three rapid fire, fun, lighter ones, to close us out.

Royce: Okay, do you have a favorite dinosaur?

Yasmin: Ooh, T-Rex, cute little arms. [Courtney laughs] Cute little arms. Even like, whenever I watch– Like, I haven’t seen the original Jurassic Park, which is bad, I know, but I’ve only seen, like, Jurassic World, and whenever the T-Rex comes up with his little arms, I’m like, “Yes!”

Royce: What do you like to do to relax after a long day?

Yasmin: Oh, play Sims 4 is my vice, probably. And I’m a bit of a Russian literature and, like, historical fiction nerd, so probably reading something from, like, minimum of, like, a hundred years ago, would be ideal. Or at least set a few hundred years ago.

Royce: And this last question: how do you feel being such an icon?

Yasmin: [chuckles] That’s a funny one. Honestly, I wish it– I don’t know. I wish it felt like– I don’t know, more. Like, I just run to the supermarket and, like, get milk, like everybody else, so I don’t know. I feel very appreciative that my life has had so many positive plot twists. Every few months I’m like, “Damn okay, I didn’t see that coming.” And that’s purely because of having support from the Ace Community and having support from people I don’t even know that are like, “We feel, like, we believe in what she’s doing and that she’d be good for something.” So I appreciate that. And I feel consistently grateful for that. I don’t know how you feel iconic, but I do feel grateful for occasionally getting to do things that do seem a little iconic, I guess.

Courtney: Well, Yasmin, as always, it is such a pleasure talking to you. And I hope our listeners are just as excited about your upcoming research. Well, not even upcoming, I keep saying that because we’re a few weeks in the past. But your brand new, recently published research. And I just can’t wait to see what else you can do with this. How do we call it? Is this a visiting–? A visiting...

Yasmin: Visiting position.

Courtney: Visiting position at King’s College. So we will be on the lookout for your future projects. So, as always, listeners, the new research, as well as links for where you can find Yasmin in all of the fun places, are going to be in the show notes on our website, as well as the YouTube description. And I think that’s that. Is there anything we want to end out on?

Yasmin: Just thank you both for having me. I’ve been, like, psychologically practicing for the day I would get my Ace Couple podcast interview.

Courtney: Have you really?

Yasmin: I was like– I literally did when I was, like, when I was going to Germany I, like, downloaded some episodes on Spotify. Got Spotify premium, so I had something to, like, download. And then I was, like, listening to like Sarah’s and, like, Marshall’s and stuff, because I was like, “Let me prep, so I don’t mess them up.”

Courtney: You could never mess us up.

Yasmin: And that was before I even asked you.

Courtney: We will be glad to have you anytime in the future, next time you have a really exciting project that you just want to announce to the world. You are welcome anytime.

Yasmin: Thank you.

Courtney: All right, let’s get out of here. Goodbye!

Yasmin: Bye!