Our dentist offered us conversion therapy

Transcript Transcribed by Laura M.

Courtney: Hello everyone and welcome back. My name is Courtney. I am here with my spouse, Royce, and together we are The Ace Couple. And today we are going to rant and rave because, listeners believe it or not, but our dentist offered us conversion therapy, so let’s talk about it. So, all in all that– that may be a bit flippant, but I want to talk about the implications of, like, really out of touch and negligent marketing and how things can just land so differently for some people. And I just need people to be more responsible in their marketing patterns and behaviors.

Royce: And there’s a lot to be annoyed with here. That aside even, just with however present marketing is, how there aren’t enough rules and regulations that are actually enforced about consumer data and marketing practices, even though there are, technically, some laws on the book, most of which date back to the early internet eras and probably need a good update and weren’t particularly great when they were written.

Courtney: So let’s– let’s start with exactly what happened, and then we’ll get into the weeds of why it was so jarring for us to receive. Not only because of the grand history of our lives and our experience and our community and our knowledge, but also just was literally at the worst possible time ever to receive, literally on that day. So there’s a lot here. But basically I got a text message one day from our dentist, out of the blue, saying: “Were you disappointed on Valentine’s Day because of your low libido? Let us help you with hormone replacement therapy so you can speed it up.” Signed, your dentist. Here’s a phone number and here’s an email address to schedule your HRT! For your low libido! And I was just blabbergasted. Royce, you actually ended up getting one too, but you got one via email.

Royce: I got an email and it was delayed. Because you originally asked if I had gotten the same text that you received to see if there was some sort of bias in their marketing.

Courtney: Well, the reason why I asked that, and I was wondering, is because this isn’t the first issue we’ve had with this dentist. We had a dentist we loved for years but then a few years ago our insurance changed and all of a sudden she’s out of network. So we have to find a new dentist in network and we picked this one. And we have had so many issues with this dentist in, like, every arena already, so this is also like the worst, but the final nail in the coffin.

Royce: Yeah, we were already trying to figure something out, because the dental world, at least in America, is one of these systems where they are self auditing to some degree. And anytime you have a self auditing community, people create scams.

Courtney: Yeah.

Royce: They bill incorrectly, that sort of thing. So there are a lot of dental practices that are done more frequently than they are needed to, there are practices that are pushed that are not helpful. And the entire reason is so they can bill insurance more.

Courtney: Yeah, which is also, like, for folks, like, who aren’t familiar as much with United States Healthcare, like, dental work is not included in health insurance at all. So we have to pay for health insurance and then we have to pay for dental insurance separately. And then we have to pay for eye– eye insurance. That’s not the phrase.

Royce: Vision.

Courtney: Vision, vision insurance. So like–

Royce: Which has its own issues.

Courtney: Right. So we were basically forced to go to this dentist because it’s the one our insurance said we could go to. And the reason why I immediately asked you if you got this same thing is because last August they sent me a happy birthday text, like from the dentist. Like, “Happy birthday, Courtney!” On my birthday. And then, kid you not, like, immediately after was like: “Do you want to set up an appointment for anti wrinkle injections?” And I was so pissed off at that! Because I was like, what– you know it’s my birthday. You just sent me a birthday text.

Courtney: Are you just relying on the fact that you, you know, perceive me as a woman and you think women have a problem aging naturally, and you’re just trying to get some extra money off of me around this time where some people do have an issue with aging? I don’t personally have an issue around my birthday, but I was thinking of all the people who do. And like, I’m getting to the age where people are having, like, midlife… crisesis? Crises. So like I was just upset on behalf of everyone else who’s getting the same kind of message. But then you did not get anything like that. They have never asked you if you wanted anti wrinkle injection. So I’m like, “Aha! Sexist. Great.” But you did end up getting the email. And the email said basically the same thing, but it was almost worse because they had the little, like– what was the phrasing at the bottom? Like, “We think this is relevant to you.”

Royce: Oh, just in the marketing disclaimer that that would have been in an email and not a text. Like, “You are receiving this message because it may be relevant to you,” sort of thing.

Courtney: Yeah, so I– I was shocked. I was upset. But let’s– let’s just talk. And the thing is I’m sure this probably went out to more people than just us. However, in that moment, like, you fill out medical forms when you go to a dentist and a lot of them seem to be wider spread medical questions than literally just what’s in your mouth. And there’s some merit to that. Like, there– there are health issues that can end up affecting the whole body, that start in the mouth, etc. But I was then in a position, especially when you hadn’t gotten one yet, where I know how I handle medical forms that ask questions that aren’t inclusive of asexuality. Especially when there are questions about, like, sex drive, libido. Like, I’ve become very bold and very feisty about answering questions like that. And I will very often just, like, completely, like, scratch out entire questions if I just don’t want to answer them. And I might even say in the margins like, “I’m asexual and this is not a problem. I don’t want you to consider it.” Like, I will get very bold in my medical forms like that because of my past history. And because of who I am and where I am at this point in my life.

Courtney: So I was immediately in a position where I’m now thinking like, were there any questions like that on any of the intake forms? I don’t remember, because it was years ago at this point that we filled them out. But then I’m like, was this at all targeted, or did they literally send it out to everyone? And I’m thinking back because you make small talk with your dentist and the dental hygienist and like, I’m like, “Did I ever tell anyone that we’re asexual?” I might have, if it– if for any reason it came up, but I couldn’t think of a specific instance. And so I’m now immediately like– that’s where my brain is upon getting this message. Because now it’s of course like, “Can I trust this particular medical professional who is in my life?” And the thing is too, the email address was like– it was signed by the dentist, it was sent by the dentist, but the email address and phone number to set up the appointment was to, like, a medical spa that I had never heard of before. And so we did some– some light hate-googling

Royce: Is that what you call it?

Courtney: Just a light hate-google. And after a time, found out that, yeah, basically our dentist is, if not the owner, seemingly a co-owner of this new med spa and, like, helped actually set it up and create this new business. So then I’m, like, not even sure how to google the question I have in a way that I know I will get an answer. Because now I’m thinking like is there a HIPAA violation here? Like, I am a patient at your dental office, I’m not a patient at this med spa, but you’re using your marketing list of current dental patients to market for totally unrelated, like, medical practice.

Royce: I’m not entirely sure, but that seems illegal. Because we did not sign up for marketing emails for this new business.

Courtney: No, no. And I’m sure that’s most of the reason why it was sent by the dentist anyway, because then they can at least say, “Well, these actually are our patients and we sent this out.” Like, if it came directly from the med spa that would absolutely be over the line. But now we’re in this weird gray area and it’s– it’s just– It’s just very upsetting. But let’s talk about– Even if we say there wasn’t anything at all targeted about this, there wasn’t anything in our intake forms, there wasn’t anything either of us have ever said offhandedly to anyone in that office, they have no idea who we are, they don’t know our orientation, and they just sent this out to like everyone for some reason.

Courtney: First of all, still weird. Still weird. But from our perspective– And here’s why I need especially medical professionals to be more cognizant of these things, but ideally anyone doing any type of marketing, you need to know that what might seem like a, you know, silly, saucy, get your attention kind of a marketing tactic can land very, very poorly if you don’t actually know who you’re sending it to. Like, this might have been fine if this was already a patient at a med spa and they have already indicated that they’re having issues with their libido and it is a problem for them and they want to work on it. Like then maybe that would have been fine and it wouldn’t have landed wrong with anyone in that very specific situation. But from our perspective, we are asexual. We’re also like, just that aside, we’re a married couple and it’s so weird to send that to both parties in a marriage.

Royce: Taking an entire database of contact information and sending a potential low libido ad to everyone four days after Valentine’s Day is just strange.

Courtney: It’s odd behavior.

Royce: It’s a weird move.

Courtney: Don’t do it. Don’t ever do it. But like, let’s talk about historically, right? So I have shared before that as a teenager, young teenager, I was in therapy for suicidal ideation among other things, and I was getting treated for severe depression. This was a medical professional I was told I should trust. And even though I had not used the word asexual at that time, it was a period in my life where I was very much noticing that I wasn’t feeling the same things other people my age were starting to feel. And I told her that there was this, like, new guy entering my life who was very clearly pursuing me sexually, and that I wasn’t interested, and that he was making me really uncomfortable. And her response was that I should explore that because that’s what normal teenagers do, “And it’s time you start acting like a normal teenager.” That’s disgusting. But against my better judgment, I listened to her. This is the person who’s supposed to be making me happy enough that I can continue living life. And I ended up getting put in a very, very dangerous situation.

Courtney: I don’t remember how much of this I’ve actually shared on microphone. I know I’ve said bits and pieces here and there. But like, when I was hanging out with this guy, not having fun, rejecting all of his advances, like he and a couple of his buddies literally grabbed me, threw me in the trunk of their car and, like, drove off. Fully kidnapped. I had to, like, break out of the trunk when the car was stopped. And I was– I like found myself at this lake after I got out. And what I ended up having to do, because I was also just so flustered and, like, embarrassed and knew I needed to get out, but I didn’t– I wasn’t ready to talk about what had just, literally right then, happened to me. So what I ended up doing, I called my grandmother to come pick me up. And I used the excuse of, oh, I was meeting some people at this lake for a lake party. We didn’t even start at the lake. That’s just where they kidnapped me to.

Courtney: And I told her that we– that, like, other people started drinking, like other kids started drinking underage and I was like, I– I’m– I’m uncomfortable, I’m being pressured to drink, I don’t want to do this. And she came and picked me up. And she was so proud of me for calling her when other people were drinking and not caving into peer pressure. She was so proud of me. She told that story to other friends of hers for years. To be like, “This is how proud I am of my very responsible granddaughter.” So, imagine being me knowing what actually happened in that story, now several times needing to hear my grandmother be like, “Yeah, she’s such a good kid. She called me when she was at a party and people started drinking.” And so every time she’d tell that story I’d be like, “Grandma, that’s not what happened, but I’m not going to tell you what did happen!”

Courtney: So not only do I fully consider any type of talk therapy, cognitive behavioral therapy, just speaking with a therapist who is actively telling you to go against your own nature when it comes to sex and sexuality, I do consider that, under the lens of asexuality, to be one of many types of conversion therapy. And sometimes that can also be paired with actual medication. Sometimes that’s in the realm of, you know, therapy, mental health, sometimes it is more physical health and it’s more like a general practice physician who is actually prescribing medication in an attempt to cure ‘low libido’ – is normally what they will say. And they will say low libido is an indicator of poor health and this is a problem and this needs to be fixed.

Courtney: If you medicate someone who is asexual under those grounds, that is also conversion therapy. And we know from studies, older and newer, we cited several times and now we– now we have a newer study to cite. We’ve cited the, oh, asexuals are 10 times more likely to be offered or undergo conversion therapy compared to other peers belonging to different queer orientations. The only queer identity that had a higher percentage of conversion therapy than aces is, of course, trans people. So these are numbers that we know. These are numbers we have known and have been talking about for years, talking about these issues.

Courtney: Just being a part of this community, we’ve talked to so many other ace people from all around the world and we’ve heard stories. And some folks have literally, as aces, been sent to like what most people think of when they first hear conversion therapy, like the Christian anti-gay camp sort of a conversion therapy experience. I would argue again, that is just one of many types of conversion therapy. And people will often try to discredit aces like, “Well, you don’t get sent to the camps! So you don’t, you aren’t subject to conversion therapy.” Well, first of all, I know people who have. It does happen, it has happened.

Royce: Yeah, that model of thinking is a– another incarnation of just the sort of narrow focused idea that there are two kinds of people. There are straight people and there are gay people. Because you could, you could look at the– These conversion camps are often referred to, as you know, gay conversion camps or something like that, but what they’re really trying to do is convert everyone to be straight.

Courtney: Yes. So like are people also going to tell me that a bisexual person has never been sent to–? No, get out of here, that’s– That’s not how this works. But the thing is too, like, homosexuality was long ago taken out of the DSM, out of– out of the catalog of mental disorders. It was once there. This is something we know about history. And so, even though, yes, there are instances of, like, religious conversion therapy there are things like that, where these things do still happen to the gay community.

Courtney: What is a lot more likely to be an ace experience is to have a very medicalized type of conversion therapy. Because there are still things in the DSM that can be interpreted as asexual in everything but name.

Courtney: I guess I don’t want to get too far into it because we’ve kind of been planning a big, like, history of the medicalization, the different diagnoses, the different things that asexuality might be mistaken for. So I don’t want to give the full rundown right now.

Courtney: But we also talked about it a little bit recently in our episode with Yasmin Benoit talking about the latest research, about how, because of the work of ace activists, they have added little clauses in there like, “Yeah, don’t diagnose them with this thing if they say they’re asexual. Because if they say they’re asexual then it–” But it’s very muddy, it’s very open to interpretation and it often emphasizes distress. Like, oh well, this is a problem if the patient is distressed about the current state they’re in. But the issue with distress is that aces do face bias and bigotry and social concerns. And even if there isn’t outright bullying toward a specific person, just general society tells you that this is not an acceptable way to be. So how can we really know that their distress is coming from an actual internal dissatisfaction versus ‘this is not widely socially acceptable’. So the distress is actually, like, externally imposed.

Courtney: So a lot of aces know these things, and a lot of aces are afraid to share their identity with medical professionals because of reasons like this. If they– If it hasn’t happened to them already, it is a very real fear that you’ll go to the doctor, share that you’re asexual, and the next thing they’re doing is trying to cure it. They’re trying to give you libido medication. They’re trying to give you HRT. And yeah, I don’t know.

Courtney: In talking about negligent marketing too, what this really gave me flashbacks to was to, I want to say, like 10 years ago. Like 10 years ago, when just about everyone who was a member of an asexual group on Facebook all of a sudden got it just started getting, like, bombarded with ads for the female Viagra. Which is a thing we’ve also talked about. I think it was it– Something it had, like, just gotten approved after having a history of getting rejected before for not working.

Courtney: And once it finally got, like, the approval it needed to start marketing, all of a sudden it was being marketed to people who, online, were known asexual people or talking to other asexual people being a part of these groups. So our community, me personally, but also our community, we are not strangers to wildly offensive marketing like this. So to get it so targeted from my dentist though. Like this isn’t just a nameless brand like on Facebook that is paying them however many hundreds of dollars to just blast it out to people that they think is their target market. Like this is my dentist. I see her like multiple times a year. So very weird, very strange behavior. That’s the historical precedent that getting something like this lands on when it comes to us.

Courtney: But more immediately, this was just a couple days after Valentine’s Day, as you said, Royce. So this is during Aromantic Spectrum Awareness Week, by the way. So that’s not great. It is what– Maybe a week after Yasmin’s research got published. Yeah, I’m gonna need to check the timeline on that, because obviously we were talking to her well before the episode got released, so we were aware of this research coming out.

Courtney: But yeah, it was the week before Aro Week that we released that episode, wasn’t it? So we’re like a week from fresh new statistics sharing that almost a third of people report that they believe asexuality can be cured. In a study where we know that they tried to account for people trying to hide their bias, and the researchers were surprised when they found that people weren’t trying to hide their bias. To the point where they thought maybe something was wrong with the numbers.

Courtney: And it’s like, no, people just don’t see bias against asexuality as a bias. They don’t see it as a problem because it’s so heavily medicalized. Because people think, “Oh yeah, that is a medical problem that can be cured. Have you checked your hormones? Have you tried Viagra? Have you checked to make sure you don’t have a brain tumor?” Because that’s something that we still, to this day, hear because of the fucking House episode from– What? Like 2012, 2011, whenever the hell that was.

Royce: Something like that, yeah.

Courtney: Where in that episode, the asexual character was found to have a brain tumor that was affecting his libido.

Courtney: And they said, “Yep, House was right the whole time. Asexuals don’t exist. All humans are sexual. That’s just human nature. The genius doctor did it again.” So like, yeah. And that’s a thing that real life people actually hear sometimes when they come out as ace, like, “I’m so concerned for your health, have you had a brain scan?” Get out of here.

Courtney: But not only with it being Aro Week, not only with this fresh research coming out showing 31% of people think asexuality can be cured, obviously, we’re already gonna be a little upset when we get a text message from our dentist asking to cure our low libido because Valentine’s Day! Good God. But this was literally on the day where in Kansas, our home State, they managed to overturn Governor Kelly’s veto on a bill that would prohibit gender affirming care for any and all trans minors.

Courtney: I got this text, I think, an hour or two after I got that news, watching that legislation. And so not only am I grieving for this State, and these kids, and the trans community. But I’m literally talking, texting, emailing with my other local queer friends, trying to figure out, like, what is our plan of attack. What do we do now that this is going in effect? How do we educate people? How do we keep these trans minors alive? How do we get them the care they need? What can we do? And organizing was happening. And because I was having these conversations, well, there was a, like, an emergency virtual town hall for trans minors and their families and allies. And so I am signing up for that. I’m getting the link and time and just trying to figure out where people need me, what I can do. And to then… Me. I– I get a text offering me HRT. Are you kidding me?

Courtney: How fucking insensitive to just blast out to an email list a couple hours after this ban on life-saving medical care for minors has gone into effect, just being like, “Yeah, we’re just going to hand out HRT to any of the perceived straight people that we think have a low libido problem.” No, absolutely not! I am so angry. I was so, so profoundly upset. And the timing was just awful. Across the board.

Courtney: So this was very, very baffling scenario all around. And so, like I– I called them. I called them and I had a conversation and I explained all of this. I also got the personal email to the dentist, the like, as far as I can tell, owner of this new med spa. Also, I got a direct email there, so I could also send all of this information. And this was actually funny. And I didn’t ask you, Royce, did you get a follow up apology email? Because I got a followup apology text. That was a bad apology.

Royce: I’m pretty sure I reflexively unsubscribed from the email. So, I did not get another message, and that’s probably why.

Courtney: Well, sometimes those, like, unsubscribing, like, sometimes they take a while, like this was the day after.

Royce: They shouldn’t take a while. Any relatively modern system should be instantaneous. But yeah, I know what you mean. Sometimes they get ignored or a business is pulling from a system that doesn’t– that isn’t integrated well enough with another system.

Courtney: So, after I had called them and just said, whoever answered the phone, like who do I talk to about your wildly offensive marketing practices? And shared all this information. The follow-up text that I got that day– Which presumably, again, had to have gone out to everyone who got this text, and I still don’t know the scope of who all got this text. But it just said, “So sorry for the cheeky text that was mistakenly sent earlier. This is what was supposed to be sent to you: ready to get rid of that dead, dull winter skin? Book an appointment today for a facial, and get your face fresh for spring. Here is once again the phone number and email address to the med spa, signed, your dentist.” And like… That’s not better! I mean it is better, but it’s not better.

Royce: It’s not good.

Courtney: It’s not good. It’s less potentially traumatizing, but it’s still not good. I don’t want my dentist trying to sell me Botox and facials. Stop!

Royce: I don’t want my dentist selling me anything. That’s not the point of a dentist.

Courtney: That’s not the point of any medical professional. It shouldn’t be! It shouldn’t be. But this is the world we live in. This is the medical hyper-capitalist system that we live in. And it’s torture. And like, yeah, that– that’s– I don’t think my conversation with the actual dentist is done yet. Because I could name the dentist publicly. I could put them on blast. I have it on great authority that our podcast is far more popular than hers is. I’m not saying anything, I’m just saying. [laughs]

Courtney: But the point is not to shame. The point is I want them to do better. And that’s why I called, that’s why I got the email. I want this to be an ongoing conversation. Because, very probably, when they hit send on that, they thought, “Oh, this is, you know, maybe a little bit provocative, but that’s good for marketing.” And they probably did not think of any possible downsides or offenses that would be raised.

Courtney: But that is unacceptable as a medical professional. They need to be aware of different lives, different ways of being, different ways that marketing will land. And so I want them to be aware and be careful. For– for the good of literally our local community. Like these are people– Our dentist is not that far away from where we live, you know? So were we the only ace people who are at this dentist who got that text? Maybe. That’s not the point. Like cause also– Another thing is, and this is less of a big deal to you than it would be to other folks that we know, but I’m like the phone spouse, I make the phone calls.

Royce: We have a very intentional division of labor in our household.

Courtney: Especially when it comes to communication with, like, businesses.

Royce: You have chronic pain and I have chronic social anxiety, so.

Courtney: I will lay in bed and make the phone calls for us.

Courtney: So, like when that comes to, like, doctor’s appointments and dentists, like, yeah, I will call to set up appointments, if there’s a question about billing or like paying bills, like that, that is the thing that I do.

Courtney: So there have been times where, either in the dentist, physically there, because, like I said, they’ll try to make small talk with you and they’ll– I’m sure they have notes in their system about us. Because there’s no way in hell that a dentist who only sees you for a couple minutes, because you spend more time with the hygienist, right, there’s no way they remember these little details about you. But they’ll come in and, like, ask a question about something you said last time. And I’m like, you made notes, you have notes in the chart that you’re referencing before coming in here. I feel it.

Courtney: Which is fine. That in itself is not at all offensive. But like every time I have referenced you, or whether I’m physically in there, or if I have called on the phone for something, I will always refer to you as my spouse because that’s what you are to me, that’s the word we use. And increasingly so over the years, I have just gotten to a point where– And I think most of the other people in our life too, have gotten to a point where like your pronouns are just they/them by default. And so that is just how I talk, that is how we talk. And so like, I’ll always be like, “My spouse, Royce,” and I’ll use they. Every single time it’s, “Oh yeah, we can get your husband in. Yes, he can–”

Courtney: Like they’re like– I don’t know if it’s intentional and I normally tried to give people the benefit of the doubt when it comes to, like, pronouns and things. But, like, some of the ladies at the front desk that I’ve talked to over the phone, it’s like you’re overusing the he pronoun. Like you didn’t need to use he/him six times in the last two sentences. After you heard me say spouse and they. Almost like felt intentional. So like, the, the full picture. And like that level of, like, we– you’ve talked about your own experience with gender or lack thereof and pronouns, and like being misgendered doesn’t hurt you viscerally like it does for some non-binary people or agender people. So like, that is not alone a deal breaker. Like we’re gonna find another dentist because the secretary refuses to use they/them pronouns and can’t say the word spouse.

Courtney: Like for the most part you go into the dentist for– what? Half hour twice a year and then it’s done. And they aren’t even using, like, those third person pronouns, like, to your face anyway. So not a big deal. But in the grand scope of things, like, I do want this to be a bigger conversation about like, yeah, you need to make this a business that is going to be friendly to the queer community. And if you’re not friendly to the queer community, then we need to know that because we are out of here. I mean, let’s be real, we’re done with this dentist now. We’re going back to the dentist we liked years ago, even though she’s not in network anymore. That’s probably what’s going to happen, and we’ll have to pay out of pocket for our cleanings now.

Courtney: But it’s just, it’s a different worldview. It’s a different lived experience that, as of now, I have no reason to think that it’s anything but ignorance to, like, how poor of an experience this, you know, dentist has actually been to us. But I hope that it can be a real conversation and that things like this don’t continue to happen because it is awful. And I really do encourage you, because a lot of people are talking lately, and if this is very outside of your nature, like this does not have to be everyone. Nobody has to force themselves to do it, it does not have to be your job. But if having conversations like this is something that you are open to, I really do think that– As much as we’re upset and we’ve been venting to each other, we’ve been venting to our friends and like family around us about this whole thing, other people are mad on our behalf, like we’re going to let off the steam, and we’re going to share this story with you because it’s so profoundly odd. I think it might be relatable to some of our ace listeners and some of our allo listeners out there might be like, “Wow, that’s a whole new way that aces get reminded they’re wrong. From their dentists of all things! That I never considered.”

Courtney: But I do think the most effective way to change hearts and minds and behaviors is to actually be a known person. People in your life. If you’re someone who is already out publicly, just having these conversations with people when it comes up. And trying to exercise patience and try to come at it from a point of education when you are having those conversations with those people. Because most people are going to get very defensive if you just call and start screaming at people, or if you leave, like, a really nasty review on Google. Like none of these things are inherently bad.

Courtney: But in my experience, for as afraid as we are because of all the bigotry we see online, and all the people who are emboldened to say just the most awful things to aces on social media and in these virtual spaces, most people, if you’re face to face with them, if you’re on the phone with them and you are just earnestly trying to share your experience and your view and do it from a point of compassionate education, that kind of is, I think, one of the most valuable resources we actually have as a community. And truly any, any marginalized community out there.

Courtney: So I think that’s worth pondering for all of us. Because, boy, I tell you, I really– I really wanted to leave a really nasty, negative, one star review. Not only about this situation, but like, retroactively, the laundry list of things that had already ticked me off about this dentist. I wanted to leave a nasty review not only on the dentist, but then I was like, what if I also leave a one star review on the med spa because clearly they’re trying to be one and the same. And I don’t agree with their marketing practices. And then I saw the med spa is new enough, they don’t even have a single review yet. And I was like, I am not that mean. A dentist that already has hundreds and hundreds of reviews, maybe, maybe I could leave a one star review. But I couldn’t do it.

Courtney: I couldn’t do it as, like, a business owner myself. Like, I know that like a single one star review as your first one, that is angry enough, that is awful enough, like that actually like can tank a business. And I don’t want to tank a local woman owned business. I just want local women owned businesses to do better. And I think that’s a lot more likely if I can approach them and say, “Hey, I’m coming to you privately about this, because I want to trust that you will listen to me and I want to trust that you will take this to heart. And I want to trust that you are going to take this as a learning experience, even if I don’t, you know, name you and blast you publicly.” And we’ll see. We will see.

Courtney: And on that note, I think it is time for today’s featured MarketplACE vendor. Today we have Suzettey1, an aromantic artist who makes aromantic, seasonal, fandom related and miscellaneous designs. I think one of my favorite ones in this shop is this really fun design that you can get like a sticker. You can put on a bunch of different things. It says: hopeless aromantic. It’s a heart with the aro flag on it and, like, kind of a cupid’s arrow kind of a thing going through the heart. But there’s also these really nice, like, aroace fists. Like two, two fist designs: one is the ace flag with the black ace ring and the other is the aro flag with the white aro ring. And that’s very nice. But a lot of other fun, like: immune to romance, and general aro merch. Some very good designs on here. So, as always, links to find our featured vendor this week are going to be in the show notes on our website as well as the description on YouTube. Thank you all, as always, so much for being here. And everyone out there, be careful at your dentist! Goodbye.