Trevor Noah Podcast says Asexual males are the “most dangerous people in the world”

Transcript Transcribed by Laura M.

Courtney: Hello everyone and welcome back. My name is Courtney. I am here with my spouse, Royce, and together we are The Ace Couple. And we are back with another very, very fun episode, because high profile people are being a little shitty to asexuality again. Imagine that. So obviously we have recently covered the latest JK Rowling debacle. That one was interesting because for how surprised a lot of people were that she specifically picked on asexuals, everyone was very quick to be like, “Well, yeah, we already don’t like her because of the transphobia, so of course we’re gonna stand up for aces. How dare she say this thing?” But now we have a situation which is– is not really new. We– we’ve talked a lot about how people who would or should on paper be an ally to us in our community, or you would sure think so, still don’t really stand up for us or come to bat. And we have, I think, a really good example of that with the recent Trevor Noah podcast.

Courtney: So Trevor Noah on the podcast What Now? recently had on a guest by the name of Scott Galloway. Scott is the one who made the offensive remarks in question, but there was absolutely no pushback on it. So let’s examine the line that mentions asexuals and we’ll get our nitpicks about definition and language out of the way. Because we actually listened to that entire episode and, believe you me, there is a lot more to talk about than just that line. The entire episode was very, very much entrenched in an ideology of compulsory sexuality and there is much, much to criticize there. So the– the offending comment by Scott here was that we as a society are developing a generation of asexual asocial males and that they are the most dangerous people on the planet.

Courtney: To which, unfortunately, Trevor’s co-host, Christiana, didn’t push back. She was pushing back a lot earlier on the episode on several points of his, but to this one she just sort of nodded her head and said, “Yes, very dangerous.” Now the language nitpicks here, this was all in a context of more or less talking about men who want to get laid but cannot get laid. So in that scenario a lot of people are very quick to say, “You’re using the wrong word. You’re not talking about asexuals. I think the word you’re looking for is incel,” you know, involuntary celibate. And perhaps it would be true. We do not know because we have not been given this opportunity, we haven’t been given a seat at the table to have this discussion. Perhaps if we sat down with Trevor Noah, or even Scott Galloway, and explained, “Hey, asexuality is an identity, here is this group of people, this is asexuality, we are under the queer umbrella,” perhaps there would be enough empathy and understanding there where they’d be like, “Oh you’re right, I’ll use a different word.”

Courtney: But in that theoretical scenario that still is far from enough because of everything that preceded that comment about asexual asocial males being dangerous. Not only dangerous, the most dangerous.

Courtney: Rhetoric like this has been used against our community for a very long time. We have very recently talked about articles calling asexual people groomers, saying that we’re dangerous to be around children. But even in the past we have talked about this strange phenomenon that happens anytime there is a massive disruption to the status quo, whether that be the nuclear family, whether that be capitalism, the economy, social justice issues. There is a strong and consistent pattern of this being dismissed as people who are just not having enough sex. We have seen this with the– with the GameStop, with the short stock situation.

Courtney: There were articles, there were people giving think pieces and going on podcasts saying this is just a bunch of men who are not having enough sex. If they were out getting laid. They wouldn’t have to, you know, screw up the stock market for everyone. How dare these sexless men do this? They should just go get laid. These are things that we heard in that situation. We talked about, with the college campus protests in favor of Palestine, we saw articles talking about how these are just college kids who are not having sex, like college kids are supposed to. If they were just having sex, they wouldn’t be protesting on our college campus. Which is obviously such a silly thing to talk about. Because, as we pointed out the first time we talked about that specific instance, there were protests against the Vietnam War, famously during the era that was branded for free love.

Courtney: Okay, rare post-recording addendum, this is me chiming in because we finished recording this entire episode and sat down and I started compiling sources to put in the show notes. And I was going to find the source of the guy saying college students aren’t having enough sex, so they’re turning to anti Israel protests. And it is literally this guy! It is– It is Scott Galloway. It’s the same guy! I didn’t even recognize the name as being exactly, literally the same guy. But hearing him talk on Trevor Noah’s podcast, I was like, “This is the same thought pattern as the kind of people who say this.” No, it is literally just that guy. Who, to refresh your memory for just a second, said: “I think part of the problem is young people aren’t having enough sex, so they go on the hunt for fake threats. And the most popular threat through history is anti-Semitism.”

Courtney: This is in response to protests in favor of a free Palestine. So we also don’t love the conflation with pro-Palestine being anti-Semitic. I’m not going to rant on this too much longer because I know this episode is already rather long, but for any of you interested in hearing our original thoughts on that, you can listen to our episode entitled: “Student protests are not caused by a lack of sex, but aces should still call for a free Palestine.” That’s episode 137, in case you’re interested. I should have known. I should have known this guy was already on our radar. All right. Now back to your previously recorded programming.

Courtney: So if you– if you scrutinize it at all, it clearly does not hold up when these arguments are thrown out, but they are thrown out consistently. And it’s every time there’s a disruption to the status quo. The overarching theme is: we should use sex and sexuality as a way to keep people docile so that they do not disrupt the status quo. Which– the nuclear family, you know a man and a woman having sex and having children and starting a family together and getting married, like that is itself a status quo. If you opt out of that, you are already disrupting something in a way that does feel very threatening to those who are in power. But it’s always, also when these comments get thrown out, there is an air of danger around it. These college protests are dangerous. Our students don’t feel safe.

Courtney: Or but the economy, but our stocks, our finances. This is dangerous. If these people not having enough sex are messing with the economy. And even with the nuclear family, well, but the population collapse. People aren’t having enough kids. Who’s going to take care of the aging population if we aren’t replacing ourselves? This is the greatest threat to humanity right now, is population collapse. These are all things they say. So there is an immediate sense of danger and urgency when not enough sex is evoked as a talking point. And unfortunately, that is exactly what this guest is also doing. He’s just trying to approach it from a place that, on the surface, looks a little more left leaning than a lot of the conservative talking points we get. But at the end of the day he’s saying a lot of exactly the same things. And you know, in fact, after listening to this podcast episode, I actually went to look into this guy a little more.

Courtney: As a writer, speaker, thinker, he does have a medium account with a variety of articles. I read through a few of them. He has been on Bill Maher, I listened to one of those episodes. And he’s been on a lot of other very high profile podcasts, some which I just listened to little bits and pieces of to get sort of a clearer picture of what this guy’s talking points are, outside of the scope of this one episode. But the first thing he said that upset me so profoundly in listening to this podcast episode with Trevor Noah was just sort of a conversation about why Trump won. He’s trying to look at the demographics of people that voted for Trump the second time but didn’t the first time, or people who swung in the direction of Trump that you wouldn’t expect to. And his thesis, which did get challenged by the co-host, was: it’s young men and middle aged women. So his– his hypothesis here was it’s young men who are struggling and their mothers, the mothers who see their young sons struggling.

Royce: And he, of course, did not supplement this with any tangible information.

Courtney: Uh, I mean, it was a lot of anecdotal for this one in particular. This is a guy who has memorized certain facts and statistics and he will throw out his favorite percentages now and then.

Royce: The link between Trump voters being of the same family, related sons and mothers, there was no mentioned statistical correlation.

Courtney: No.

Royce: I don’t even know if any agency in the country collects data on that.

Courtney: No, I– He did not say anything about that, no. But he had the audacity to say, well, if your son is in the basement playing video games and vaping, then you aren’t going to give a shit about transgender rights. He said that is a luxury position that rich Democrats get to have.

Royce: Which, by the way, did he mean himself there? Is he a Democrat? He’s definitely rich.

Courtney: He’s definitely rich.

Royce: That’s one thing. I didn’t look him up until after, like until we sat down to do the podcast. So you had the podcast that he was on playing and we heard all of that. And then I sat down here and looked up, oh, he’s basically been a founder of a variety of companies for many, many decades. Has– was born into at least some amount of wealth, like Country Club sort of wealth, and–

Courtney: He specifically said, he’s like, “Oh yeah, growing up like we all went to the same Country Clubs.” And I’m like, “Guy…” [laughs]

Royce: Yeah. I mean we’ll get into some of these specific points and why they don’t make sense and the criticisms of that, but reading that bio definitely recontextualized some of this for me as another sort of out of touch older wealthy person telling millennials to stop eating avocado toast, kind of a thing.

Courtney: In a way, yes. He was very, very rich versus poor, in a lot of his talking points. In a very populist way that is like, is usually attributed to left leaning, but is maybe a little more moderate. But because– because one thing he said that got challenged a bit was about affirmative action and DEI measures. He was like, “These are good things, it’s a good thing that, you know, we have a higher percentage of students going to college who are nonwhite. This is a good thing. It’s good that we have more women going to college.” So he was largely in favor of those. But he’s saying, now that we got those percentages up, we just can’t keep going forever, but it’s because this isn’t a Black versus white issue, this is a rich versus poor issue. And he’s saying, “The affirmative action should not be happening to help students Of Color, the only color–” This, this is actually a talking point I heard him repeat on another podcast that I didn’t even listen to in full, and from like three years ago. So he’s been saying this talking point for a time. “The only color affirmative action should be looking at is green.”

Courtney: And being on Trevor Noah’s podcast, he was saying like, “Well, because Trevor Noah’s kids, like any kids you have, are gonna do all right. Your kids don’t need affirmative action to get into a good school because you’re rich.” And a lot of those talking points did get challenged by Christiana, the co-host. Because she mentioned intersectionality. She’s like, “There is an intersectionality about it.” And she even challenged the, like, mothers of sons that are struggling. Because she’s like, “Black mothers have Black sons who are struggling and they’re struggling with racial profiling, they struggle at higher rates with marijuana charges, and they have all these things that the white sons struggling don’t have to deal with on as much of a systemic level.” And she’s like, “And a lot of us voted for Kamala Harris.” So she– she definitely tried to push back on those points.

Royce: Going back to my little avocado toast comment a moment ago. Only part of that was finances. The other thing that made this feel similar to me is: a person is looking at a problem and there is a real underlying problem there, and then, instead of digging into it further, they just pick the first surface level probable cause that they can see. So what I saw a lot of Scott doing was just having an idea of why a problem might be happening and then, with no evidence, saying, “This is the issue, this is what we need to fix.” And in my opinion, most of his thoughts around what the underlying causes are and how to fix them are wrong.

Courtney: Yes. Because he did also take this a step further in a way that was frighteningly flippant, I think, and short-sighted. Because of course, he brought in the concept of the loneliness epidemic, and young men are lonely, they don’t have robust social circles, and he did bring these all up as problems. He cited a statistic of, like, one in seven men don’t have friends, one in four men don’t have a best friend. Like he’s got his pet favorite statistics that he’s ready to drop in service of his thesis. But what his proposals boil down to, he outright said that he thinks that every government policy should be crafted in service of making sure that everyone under 40 has a better chance of meeting someone to mate with. And he used the word mating a lot.

Royce: Yeah.

Courtney: It was uncomfortable.

Royce: It was kind of weird.

Courtney: And some of the things he threw out as like, “This will help people mate,” were, you know, generally good. Like, and things that you hear in general for loneliness epidemic conversations anyway. He said we need more third spaces. But then he said we need more– Like we need mandatory federal services. And I saw him mention, not on this podcast but in another one, he actually cited Israel with mandatory service as being like, “Yeah, when people do their mandatory service, they meet people and some of them get married and start families and start communities.” I don’t think he was specifically necessarily implying that America needs mandatory military service, but he was talking at least about mandatory community service in a variety of aspects. But then he also said no work from home. He said working from home is a disaster for men.

Royce: And this makes perfect sense now that I see he’s like a career CEO, because C-level executives are completely out of touch when it comes to work from home.

Courtney: Yeah.

Royce: Because the thing is, sometimes your co-workers suck. [Courtney laughs] And sometimes not having a big commute means that you can spend more time with your community, whether that’s your friends, your family, your neighbors.

Courtney: Mm-mm. And like, “Oh no, this is a disaster for men.” What about for disabled people, for whom work from home was a complete blessing and very much needed? Yeah, all of these policies he was recommending. And he did say– Because he probably has to, to try to skirt criticism, but we’re not going to skirt the criticism, because we see the heart of what you’re trying to say. He did say like, yeah well– And he was talking about economics, he was criticizing the fact that, you know, it is harder to buy a home. All of the inflationary talking points that we’ve all heard a million times in recent years. We all know the drill, “Millennials are not as well off as their parents were at their age, and they’re the first generation ever.” Those kind of talking points. And so he was generally advocating for, like, yeah, people do need to be able to afford living. They need to be able to afford going out and things like that.

Courtney: And he said, you know, and if you don’t want to have kids, if you don’t want to use this extra money you’re going to be getting to have kids. That’s fine. Even if you just want to use your extra money to go out and go to brunch, that’s fine. “But think, just for two more seconds, about the implications of every federal policy we have needs to be in service of getting people to mate.” First of all, we already have a lot of those in place. So this is not theoretical. We do have a lot of things in place, whether it be tax related benefits, there are like over 1000 on the books – we’ve talked about this before – which does inadvertently cause or maybe, maybe, maybe vertently discrimination against people who do wish to stay single and want to stay single. The economy, our society, our country is not built for someone to be single for their entire life. There are just not enough social safety nets. There are not enough affordable housing options for something a single person would need. That is not a way to achieve equality. We don’t achieve equality by giving people more opportunities to mate with one another. But that was very much the point that he was putting out there.

Royce: And so, to go back to the original premise. You started this thought by Scott saying, “This percentage of men don’t have friends, this percentage of men don’t have a best friend.” And his solution is, “Well, let’s force everyone together.” Again, there is another potential reason why this is happening that you could try to find a better solution for, aside from just cramming a bunch of people together or trying to force behavior. And I can say, looking back on my life, there was a long period of time where I had friends, but looking back now, I didn’t have any close friends. I didn’t have any close friends because the only people I felt I could actually open up to were people that I was dating. And so I had male friends that I spent a lot of time around, but that was just playing video games and making jokes and talking about school and things that were going on.

Royce: It was very surface level. None of it was emotional, none of it was personal. If I had a problem that was complicated, that I was working to, I didn’t talk to my dad about it, I didn’t talk to my brother, I didn’t talk to any of my friends about it. I just kind of shoved it down and hoped I figured it out. And that’s because the social environment that people grow up in encourages those kind of relationships for women and not for young boys or men. A lot of boys, one, don’t have that kind of relationship with their fathers. That’s– The joke that happens about family units is that your dad hardly talks and tell you, like, “Here’s how you do this thing,” and then never shows any emotional depth ever for his entire life. Basically.

Courtney: Is that a joke, or is that just–?

Royce: It’s– it’s black humor. [Courtney laughs] It’s one, it’s one of those–

Courtney: Because I’ve observed it.

Royce: It’s the comedic routines that are funny because everyone gets it and it kind of hurts a little.

Courtney: Yeah.

Royce: But the thing is, unless Gen Z has completely changed from the childhood that I grew up in, you wouldn’t talk to your friends at school about a rough time that you were having, because if you worded it wrong you would be the joke of the group. Like, you didn’t show weakness because you couldn’t show weakness. And so you grow up and then suddenly realize that your self-awareness is shot and you’re emotionally stunted. Now you’re trying to play catch up to learn how to communicate properly. And, like, the only people that can fix that are the people experiencing it. It’s the social groups, like at these early stages of development, that need to be more accommodating. And, yeah, parents, teachers, school systems could help accommodate that. But you’re dealing with a problem where we’re saying there is a loneliness epidemic amongst young men, well, young men have to be the ones to solve that.

Courtney: And it was very interesting because you mentioned fathers, and this was something he did as well from a different angle. Fathers, and they didn’t use the phrase emotional labor, but I believe the co-host did push back on this a little bit. Because he was basically saying men need romantic and sexual relationships. That’s what they need. And she pushed back, Christiana did, saying, like, “Well, you’re saying men don’t even have friends. If men had robust social circles and good friends, maybe it’s not going to be as bad if they don’t have a romantic partner, if they aren’t having sex with a woman.” And he said, basically, “You’re– you’re describing a fantasy, you’re describing a world that doesn’t exist and I’m describing a world that does exist.”

Royce: But that’s the thing. She gave him the answer and he didn’t want to entertain it.

Courtney: No, he was like, “That’s, that’s a fantasy, that’s not good enough.” Like they would be nice if, if men could just have friends and they would be satisfied socially with that, that would be nice, but, realistically speaking, no, they need to be having sex with a woman. Like that– That was basically what he said. I’m wildly paraphrasing, obviously, but no, that, that, that was– that was the gist. And that is fascinating too, because he was talking about things like, I mean, he also cited the things I have grown to have very little patience for, like, “Men are not as developed as women.”

Royce: That was something that really irritated me. He threw– he threw a lot of statistics out there that some of them might be accurate. I’m–

Courtney: Accurate with a slant.

Royce: Accurate, with a slant. I’m willing to– I’m inclined to believe that a number of them are bullshit. But this one, he said, “Men don’t fully develop their frontal cortex until 25,” so they are behind women in their biological capabilities for emotional awareness, or something like that.

Courtney: Yeah, he said like 18 months.

Royce: Yeah.

Courtney: He’s like, “Men are 18 months behind women.”

Royce: That is the kind of shit that people fabricate when they want an excuse. Like the reason why men are behind women in social understanding is because it isn’t taught. It goes back to ‘boys will be boys’, ‘but that’s not ladylike’. It’s a difference in early education and expectation.

Courtney: Yeah, and to bring it back to the fathers. That was– I’m so glad that you mentioned the trope of the father who has no emotional depth or relationship with his children and just sort of exists there silently. Because that– that doesn’t– can happen. He basically said another big issue is single parent households because he says most single parent households are a single mother and an absentee father, deadbeat dad, whatever the situation is there. And he said, “No, single mothers are great, but a single mother raising a daughter, that daughter’s mostly gonna be fine. But a single mother raising a son, that’s a tragedy because that son needs a father figure, he needs an older male role model in his life that he can look up to.” And to bring that into your point, I think there are a lot of men who do grow up with a father in their life who are still not a role model in any emotional intelligence way.

Royce: Well there’s– There’s something underlying that that I think is present in everything we heard him say. He was giving anecdotes. One he mentioned, I don’t remember if he specifically called himself verbatim a fuck up, [Courtney laughs] but he mentioned kind of skating through early life, a lot of substance abuse. Very privileged individual, again grew up with money. But he said he started getting his shit together when an older man, an RA in college, told him to stop smoking weed all the time.

Courtney: It wasn’t even an RA, it was his– He was in a fraternity.

Royce: A fraternity, okay.

Courtney: and it was like his big brother fraternity, so like he was a freshman and he was, like, assigned a senior.

Royce: Are you telling me, at no point in your life, your mom didn’t tell you this? A girl you dated didn’t tell you this? Like, I think this person respects the words of men around him a lot more than he respects the words of women.

Courtney: It was interesting too, because that was one line that we were both scratching our heads about. And that’s why I had to go back and re-listen to that line. Because this was like he was 18. And the guy was 22. So that’s not even a huge age gap. But he was like, “Yeah, my– my big brother in the fraternity sat me down and said you need to stop getting high every single night. And I needed that, because I never had a male role model in my life to tell me that before.”

Royce: That’s the thing. Why did your role model need to be male?

Courtney: Yeah, yeah. And the funnier thing is that I pulled up– What was this podcast even called? I want to…

Royce: Trevor Noah’s podcast?

Courtney: No, I listened to a short bit of… Oh The Rich Role podcast that he was on a year ago, where he said– The context of this conversation was basically like, “Yes, men do need to have relationships with women.” And he was like, “The only reason why I stopped smoking pot every day is because my girlfriend said she wasn’t going to have sex with me anymore if I didn’t get my shit together, and that was a great motivator.”

Royce: And again, I have to assume, if their relationship got to the point where that was said, there were many, many other times when it was suggested or argued–

Courtney: Probably.

Royce: –that you cool it with the substances.

Courtney: But also, to take it back to his theory of everything we do needs to be in service of getting people to mate. Another thing he said that had me rolling my eyes all the way into the back of my head is that young people need to drink more. They need more alcohol, they need to go out to the bar and get drunk and meet people and make mistakes. So if we stitch his own words and anecdotes together, he’s kind of saying: men are fuck-up’s right now because they’re being fuck-up’s in private in their basement, but we need men to go and be fuck-up’s in public around women so that those women can threaten to withhold sex from them, so that they will finally get their shit together.

Royce: Yeah, this whole thing seems to be… Scott has identified something that he views as a problem and is jumping through every hoop in sight to find any solution other than educating young men to be better people, to be more self-aware, to be more empathetic, and compassionate, and to have better relationships with each other. Because, correct me if I’m wrong, but I believe he also said in one of these podcasts or articles or something, that the relationship scene is very uneven.

Courtney: He used the word inequality.

Royce: Inequality. And he is approaching his ideal of there being more mating, purely from the perspective of men.

Courtney: Yes.

Royce: Men need to have easier access to women.

Courtney: Yes.

Royce: He’s not seeing this from the women’s perspective at all, which again is a theme here in his whole outlook in life, it seems.

Courtney: Because he even said something that was very incel-coded a couple of different times. He said the top 10% of men get 90% of the attention from women. And I was like…

Royce: Oh, that is– that’s huge red pill stuff.

Courtney: Yeah. [laughs] Yes.

Royce: I think that’s even more extreme. Wasn’t it normally 80/20?

Courtney: I don’t know the incel percentages.

Royce: I have not read up on red pill stuff in a while and I didn’t do it extensively in the first place, but yeah, that is very red pill.

Courtney: And this was– I was gagged when he said this. He said there’s “inequality in dating.” I don’t know if this was the Trevor Noah’s podcast, or if it was another one. Maybe it was the Bill Maher, I don’t know. There was something I said– I heard these words come out of his mouth, across one of those few things I listened to with him, he said: “If mating was a country,” the concept of mating was a country, “it would have more inequality than Venezuela.”

Royce: You repeated that to me and I mostly just got confused. Maybe I need to read up on Venezuela.

Courtney: I mean, that’s one of those things where I was like, you don’t even expect the people you’re saying this to to have any geopolitical idea about what’s happening in Venezuela. Like, there’s no way you know. You just think this sounds good. That is such a tweet of a talking point that is to get attention. So my– my entire view on this is not only is it disappointing that someone can come on such a high profile platform and say asexual males are the most dangerous people on this earth, and that gets to go unchallenged. First of all, let’s make acephobia taboo, please. We really have to make acephobia taboo. Anytime someone says something like this, we need to clown on them, we need to ostracize those people, give them a social slap on the wrist.

Royce: Well, coming off of the article in the UK that– the research in the UK that Yasmin was involved with, a lot of people literally do not know that what they’re saying is wrong. So there are plenty of people who do know and do mean it and they can just slip in under the radar.

Courtney: Yes, exactly. It’s funny. I don’t think I cited this specific post or phenomenon in our acephobia to transphobia pipeline episode, but I’ve absolutely seen posts where these self-proclaimed, happily identified TERFs who are also putting like proud acephobe in their bios, like back during the period of time where they were actively trying to recruit acephobic people into their TERF rhetoric, they would be doing these little think pieces and blogs about how, I think, the reason why more people don’t subscribe to TERF ideology is because being transphobic has been made taboo. They are afraid to be seen as transphobic because they’ve been– I mean they’ll use words like indoctrinated. They’ll say they’ve been indoctrinated into believing that you shouldn’t be mean to transgender people. So they’re so afraid, so they don’t want to say anything that might have them perceived that way. But asexuals are fair game. Like, no one likes them, no one’s coming to their defense. So we need to recruit the acephobes who are saying terrible things to asexual people and then slowly tell them, “Hey, it’s okay to be openly mean to transgender people also.” Like that, that is the game.

Courtney: So that’s the social aspect of it, and our observations from being within the community. But yeah, you are absolutely right, Royce. We have studies. We have a very recent one. And that’s, you know, building off of previous studies that have also been done, showing that asexuals are the most dehumanized group amongst the queer community, most likely to be equated to a robot or an animal. And in a study that was designed to try to account for bias, they saw that people expressing views about asexuality, asking whether or not they think it can be cured or if they haven’t seen the right person yet, those people didn’t even try to hide their bias because no one’s ever told them, “Hey, that’s kind of bigoted.” So we need to make acephobia taboo.

Courtney: Because as soon as he actually says the word asexual, and saying asexual males are dangerous, that should be shut down immediately. That’s number one. But number two, we really really do need to criticize these more nefarious, stealthier talking points that are made in service to a culture of compulsory sexuality that does disproportionately harm asexual people. Because if we already have articles out there saying we’re dangerous and shouldn’t be around children, and then we have people saying, “Yeah, asexual males, most dangerous people on this earth,” that’s going to leach into the public consciousness more and more. And it seems that that rate of people being bigoted is leaching out a lot faster than people trying to make that bigotry taboo.

Royce: Yeah, and [sighs] we’ve spoken many times on how the underlying nature of bigotry is the same. And things like these tend to go in cycles. I don’t know if there is a case where we can look to history to try to find a means of doing this, but my first thought in trying to think through this scenario and how to explain it to someone in the quickest way to get them to pay attention is this is like going back many decades and hearing people talk about a wave of pedophilia, and then trying to say that there is an issue with homosexual people. Like this is something that happened back then. There has been homophobia, has been rooted in that idea, but there is no substance to it. There is no correlation. Those are not the right words. There’s– it’s just– it’s wrong. It’s not.

Courtney: It’s wrong, but it becomes intertwined in public consciousness.

Royce: It does.

Courtney: Amongst the people who do have those bigoted proclivities, who are just going to go like, “Yeah, based on vibes, makes sense to me.” And [sighs] I guess it’s time to break out. So we’ve talked about education mode lately and how it doesn’t help, because the people who are trying to brand their talking points know what they’re doing. We have a sort of version of this happening here too. He wrote an article called Porn, and in this article he starts talking about how pervasive internet porn has gotten and how accessible it is. And does mention that the DSM doesn’t acknowledge porn addiction as, you know, a disorder, because from a lot of psychologists and psychiatrists and researchers that I have read from, a lot of people don’t think that it does qualify.

Royce: And I believe that’s the same for sex addiction, right? That has been studied, and most modern thinking is that there’s something else going on here. It’s not...

Courtney: Yeah, more– more feelings influenced by social shame than, you know, actual disordered thought patterns or behaviors. But he makes a case that, you know, porn addiction probably is a thing, or whatever its closest approximation is more heavily impacts men than women. And he calls things like porn, things like OnlyFans, the fact that you know most registered OnlyFans accounts are men but most OnlyFans creators are women. He’ll use this as showing that there’s a disparity between having a biological impulse to mate but having a lack of tangible mating opportunities.

Courtney: So he’s like, well, men who cannot mate in real life are going to turn to porn. To which he shares a pro tip, and this was one he said on the podcast too, and he said it as if this is a revelation. He said, “Research shows women are attracted to men who signal three primary attributes: resources, intellect, and kindness.” And on the podcast he said kindness as, like, “Yeah, the secret weapon, the one we don’t talk about enough. Women like kindness.” I was like, you have to do a lot of studies to find that one?

Royce: Took him a while.

Courtney: But here’s where he once again uses the word asexual. But he also uses it alongside the word incel. So he didn’t say incel on Trevor Noah’s podcast, and a lot of people in the Ace Community lately have been being like, “You’re trying to say incel, this isn’t asexual.” No, he’s used both words rather strategically here, I think. No, he’s used both words rather strategically here. I think he calls this section homo solo, which I don’t think sounds the way he thinks it does. He writes: “We pathologize males attracted to misogynistic communities as incels, potential mass shooters and sex criminals.”

Royce: Oh, he’s trying to say that as like a subspecies of homo sapien.

Courtney: Yeah.

Royce: Because he–

Courtney: They’re not homo sapiens anymore, they’re homo solo.

Royce: He used the word evolve at one point, which I hate. But continue.

Courtney: Didn’t you know, Royce, that sex is what makes us human? Haven’t you heard that? Haven’t you heard that, Royce?! [laughs] But, yes, any rate, he says, “We pathologize males attracted to misogynistic communities as incels, potential mass shooters, and sex criminals. But these men are statistical outliers.” So he’s like, those people exist, but I’m not talking about them right now. [reading] “However, we may be evolving a new species of asocial, asexual male. Homo solo. Homo solo’s inability to develop romantic skills means he’s primarily a danger to himself, as he’s likely to be less happy, earn less money and die sooner. Homo solo’s AI girlfriend never says no and is never tired, busy or in a bad mood. In other words, she’s not human, and that obviates the risk of rejection and other complexities of real-life relationships.”

Courtney: “We’ve been taught to believe that the menace to society was the fraternity alpha male. It isn’t. Society is being subjugated to the sociopathy of a bunch of tech CEOs who, in my view, did not get laid enough as young men. Show me a guy who is competent in a bar, and I’ll show you someone who can be reasonable in a boardroom. Show me a guy who objectifies women, building an app that pits women against one another based solely on their physical attributes, and I’ll show you Mark Zuckerberg.”

Royce: So, bashing on tech CEOs aside, I hate most of that.

Courtney: [laughs] We can bash on Mark Zuckerberg, yes, that’s allowed. We’ll allow it.

Royce: First of all, the whole framing of human biology evolving a different subspecies is just stupid. Stop doing that. The– [sighs] There’s a lot of mental health ableism going on in that.

Courtney: Oh, absolutely there is.

Royce: And again it completely skips over. He’s taking a snapshot of an existing group of people in our existing society at a certain stage of life and is ignoring all of the developmental steps that got them there. He’s refusing to acknowledge that people can learn to empathize and communicate with each other. And I think it’s probably because he never did that as a kid, as an adult, as a 60 year old man.

Courtney: Well, he got his shit together at some point when his fraternity big brother and his– the girl he was sleeping with told him to cut it out.

Royce: He got his financial shit together.

Courtney: Ah… It’s– This is the thing, he’s like, I know of the incels. I know of the people who are actually dangerous to other people. We’re not talking about them. Asocial asexual males are the problem. And we’ve been taught to believe that the menace to society is the fraternity alpha male? It’s not. It’s– It’s nerds who didn’t get laid enough when they were younger. Are you kidding me?

Royce: He said in the other podcast you read earlier that he wants more people drunk to make mistakes.

Courtney: Yeah.

Royce: And he said show me someone who is competent in a bar – who is, you know, someone who can get laid walking into a bar – and I’ll show you someone competent in the office. Consent is not his focus.

Courtney: No, and he takes this further too. Because the next section after homo solo is called fire. [reading] “Sexual desire is fire. Without this fire, our species goes out of business. Unfortunately, we’ve built a fire-retardant generation. Zoomers prefer staying home and scrolling to going out, and when they do venture out they’re less likely to visit a bar. Reducing the chances they’ll make a series of bad decisions that might pay off.

Courtney: By the way, I believe the anti-alcohol movement is second only to remote work in the damage it’s doing to young people.” Insert statistic about how asexual people are less likely to drink than allosexual people.

Courtney: But also, like you’re so concerned about porn addiction, because you want people to be having real sex instead of imaginary sex in their head. Where’s the concern about alcohol addiction? Because there are people who are sober for reasons that are incredibly important to their health and the health of the people around them. And even if we aren’t talking about a situation of someone who, you know, is an alcoholic and is sober, like if someone just makes the personal choice to not drink, whether it’s because they don’t like the taste or because they don’t like feeling uninhibited, or if it’s just a health choice. Like we drink alcohol on occasion, but alcohol is poison. It is. I don’t think there’s any benefit to encouraging people to drink more.

Royce: From a health perspective, no. There isn’t.

Courtney: But yeah, he takes it a step further. Because the last sentence of this is a doozy and I can’t stand it, because he highlighted it himself. It’s highlighted on his medium. Or maybe he didn’t. Maybe a commenter highlighted it. I don’t know how medium works with comments. But, [reading] “The risk to a 25 year old liver is dwarfed by the social isolation and loneliness epidemic plaguing America’s youth,” which is also a problem, because I think there need to be more social situations that don’t revolve around alcohol, for the sober amongst us. But then he says, “Think of the most important things in your life, who you decided to have kids with and the friends you still count on. Then ask, did alcohol lubricate the often awkward formation and cementing of those bonds?” No! When we first got married, we did not keep alcohol in the house, we didn’t go out to bars. I don’t know if we ever drunk around each other until after we moved in with each other. Or I guess, the first time might have been literally like–

Royce: As we were packing, basically.

Courtney: As we were packing to move me.

Royce: Yeah, but before we were actually settled in.

Courtney: Right. But yeah. And then he goes on to talk about, “In news that won’t surprise anyone, dampening the fire that fuels casual sex and dating has coincided with the US birth rate hitting an all-time low.” And he goes on to make it about himself again.

Royce: Well, he has to keep getting speaking gigs somehow.

Courtney: He said he barely graduated from UCLA with a 2.27 GPA. And he said, “I would hang at North Campus with friends and, to be blunt, hope to meet someone I might have sex and establish a relationship with. If I’d had on-demand porn on my phone and computer, I’m not sure I would have graduated, as I would have lost some of the incentive to venture on campus. I just read the previous sentence and it sounds crass and shallow, but it’s also accurate. And that’s the rub, so to speak. Porn can reduce your ambition to take risks, become a better person and build a better life. The best thing in my life is raising two men with a competent, loving partner. The catalyst for me risking humiliation, approaching her, and introducing myself wasn’t a desire to someday qualify for lower car insurance rates, but the desire/hope to have sex.”

Royce: So nowhere in there, in that explanation, did he mention romantic attraction, did he mention the idea of love or a lasting relationship. He mentioned finances and sex.

Courtney: [ums in agreement] And like, I agree with him on the national services, the third spaces. A lot of those things, I do think we need more robust community building, in a lot of places. I don’t think it should be exclusively in service to finding mates. But his framing here, and this is a direct quote he says near the end: “Men need to recognize there’s a profit motive in dampening the flames of desire and motivation to become better men. In sum, as I said on Bill Maher’s show, young men need to get out of the house, take risks and demonstrate excellence so they can make their own bad porn.” He consistently talks about a desire to have sex as the one motivating factor for men to do better. He’s used that in anecdotes in his own life where someone is withholding sex because he’s getting high too much and she’s over it. He’ll use it in theoretical situations. And I just don’t even know what to say about that.

Courtney: Because, aside from the fact that I know so many men who are bettering themselves or have bettered themselves for reasons other than, “I want to get laid,” I understand maybe he’s trying to reach a certain kind of man with these talking points, but that seems kind of… Like, this is the issue that asexual men have, even if someone is not outright saying that they’re the most dangerous people on the earth. Masculinity is so heavily intertwined with sexuality, and not having sex being seen as such an emasculating thing – you are less than if you are not having enough sex, if your sex drive is not insatiable – that talking points like this being as persistently put out into the world, in our culture, and not getting criticized from an asexual lens, can be really devastating. Let alone ace men who are trans, who have had to, in their own gender journey, figure out what masculinity means to them and how to inhabit it without that pre-prescribed masculine sexuality that comes along with it. There are so many layers here. And isn’t men being single mindedly sex oriented, like, isn’t that part of the problem?

Royce: Yes. Yes is the answer to that question.

Courtney: Because I mean you mentioned boys will be boys earlier, like if a young boy does something sexually violent to a young girl it very often gets dismissed as like, oh, boys will be boys. They don’t get taught better, they don’t get disciplined. At least not at the rates that they ought to. I think it’s interesting that he approaches this from a profit motive. Because he’ll say there’s a profit motive to keeping those flames down. And he’s talking about things like porn and being on your phone all the time and staying home and playing video games, like these companies are profiting off of you being home alone, giving them all your attention. He doesn’t even call it the attention economy, he likes to call it the addiction economy. But there’s also profit motivation to force people to mate. Our entire economy and society is based off of the nuclear family. It is significantly harder to buy a house as a single person than it is as a couple.

Royce: And I was waiting for clarification, but it seemed like the reason he was choosing to use the word mate this entire time was because the implication was that it was procreative.

Courtney: Yeah. Or his implication is that it should become procreative. He wants more people to have more casual sex and hookups at bars and drunken mistakes, because one of them might actually turn into a relationship. And that would be good because then you’ll have kids and then those kids can enter the economy. And then we’ll have more workers. And then you’ll have to buy things for the kid. And then the kid will contribute to the economy when– when he grows up and he starts mating. And the cycle continues! And then he does this, like, he does this ‘go for no’ thing too, when he tries to give practical advice to the young men, and he says he mentors some young men. And what really struck me is how business brained it was when he was giving examples of what he does when he sits down with his mentees to tell them what to do. He basically said, like, all right, first off, we’re gonna see how much time you spend on your phone, how many hours do you have on each app, and we’re going to get back a certain number of hours of your life every week. Cut out this number of hours on these apps.

Courtney: All right, you have more hours, now, what are you going to do with them? First, you’re going to work out, because you have to be strong. Because you have to protect people. Because that’s what men do. Then, after you start going to the gym, then you’re going to start, you know, volunteering, find a project with other people that you can do. And then the third and final step, you’re going to approach a woman and you’re going to express romantic interest in her. But the point isn’t to get her to say yes, the point is to get her to say no. Because you need to learn how to handle rejection. And the next day, when I call you and you tell me that she said no, I’m going to ask if you’re all right and you’re going to tell me, yeah, you’re all right. Because now you know that you can get rejected. So I was like, did you really just go for no romance and dating? Like that is the most sales-brained thing I have ever heard.

Royce: Well, yeah, that’s the world he’s worked in for most of his adult life. I was going to say that some of this was starting to seem a little pickup artist-y at times. Like not full-on, but just being red pill adjacent. Like just dipping into that. It makes sense that that’s the next phase of this.

Courtney: I get the vibe that he’s trying to be the left-er version of that. Like, he agrees that population decline is a problem. He agrees that men should have sex more often. He agrees that a single mother raising a son is a tragedy. But he’s gonna approach it as, like, you know, it’s bad that we have such bad income inequality in this country. We should fix those issues too. And yeah, he does end, like that podcast, saying that he hasn’t gotten it all figured out either. And you know, sometimes he yells at his kids or he has outsized emotional reactions to things, and so he’s not the perfect parent either. But he’s like, I know cell phones. And he said this and I cannot, for the life of me, get my head around it. He said when his kids go into the bathroom to hide and watch TikTok in the bathroom, he will knock on the door and tell them to get off their phones and start masturbating.

Royce: I have some questions.

Courtney: Me too.

Royce: Why do your kids need to hide in the bathroom to go on TikTok?

Courtney: I don’t know.

Royce: Do they not have doors on their rooms?

Courtney: I don’t know.

Royce: But yeah, that is not the kind of conversation that any kid wants their parent to have with them, first of all.

Courtney: No. And I backed it up to listen to it repeatedly because I was like, I’m sure he said start masturbating. I’m confident he said that. But I was like, surely he’s saying stop masturbating, because he’s just trying to like mortify them. Like there, there are some fathers out there that just try to mortify their children.

Royce: Just for fun.

Courtney: For fun. But it– like, “Oh, I know you’re on TikTok in there, but I’m gonna pretend like I think you’re watching porn.” No! I listened to it like eight different times. I’m like– He’s saying start masturbating. He’s telling his kids to start masturbating. But yeah, it’s all about sex and money with him. Sex and money.

Courtney: And I can’t believe that in this, the year 2025, this is the kind of person that left-leaning people with enormous platforms are bringing on to talk about such major issues as loneliness. Like, loneliness epidemic, I guess, how to solve social issues for men. And this also kind of feels like a weird masculine counterpart to feminist sex positivity, if that makes sense. Because, like I can, and I will eventually, I could do an entire episode about sex positivity because I have feelings about it. It has not done everything right. I do not think it always serves the Asexual Community appropriately. Because it is not always nearly as consent based as it likes to pretend like it is. Yes, consent is often a conversation in those circles.

Courtney: But I’ve heard a lot of, you know, self proclaimed sex positive people who just say like more sex is good, different types of sex is good, you know, more novel types of sex are good. Sex with more people, a diversity of people is always good. And there isn’t always space in those conversations for if, “You don’t want sex, that’s also equally as good.” I’ve seen asexual women be called bad feminists because they aren’t having sex. And it’s because consent as a conversation has often been reduced to sex being something expected. That will happen, at least sometimes, at least with some people, at least under some circumstances. So, while there might be a conversation of, you know, “No is a complete sentence. You can withdraw consent at any time.” There’s very little grace and education and discussion about what consent looks like when no is always the answer. Because people have a harder time getting on board with that. But that needs to be a very, very important aspect of consent that more people need to come to terms with. And, as you pointed out, consent is a glaring oversight in this conversation as well. But the end goal is, yeah, more sex, more sexual prospects.

Royce: I don’t think consent is an oversight for Scott. I think he doesn’t care. I mean, I’m sitting here trying to adopt a… whatever the variation of a Bechdel test is for his philosophy, [Courtney laughs] but he does not talk about women like they’re people.

Courtney: What was– While we were listening to it, you said a line that was absolutely fire.

Royce: He was talking about his motivations earlier in life, and he was saying this somewhat like self-deprecatingly, like earlier in life, this is all what was– “This was all that motivated me,” and he’s like, he’s admitting that it was a problem. But basically he was saying that I was motivated by money, and I feel like it was influence or success or power, like some– something that– some sort of like success, growth in like your career kind of a thing. I forget what, what exactly you said. And the third was women. And he said women plural, as in a relationship was not a concern. A single person was not a concern. Love, marriage, children, a family that was not a concern. It was sex with multiple women, it was one of his big three things that he wanted in life. And in doing that, you’re seeing women, plural, as–

Courtney: A commodity.

Royce: A commodity.

Courtney: Yeah, absolutely. And you know, it’s– It is interesting too, because I think he did slip in there, when he coaches people, and he was telling them to go for no. Which all of the people who have had sales jobs out there are rolling their eyes. If you have never been exposed to this ‘go for no’ thing, these are just like the most predatory, obnoxious sales job out there. Think door-to-door salesmen. Like the jobs where you’re gonna be getting told no all day long because the company’s sales tactics are so obnoxious that literally nobody likes them. They try to rewire your brain to be like, “No is actually good, because now you’re on the path to a yes. You have to get this many no’s before you get a yes.”

Royce: Yeah.

Courtney: “So a no, isn’t a problem. You’re just that much closer to the yes.”

Royce: And part of that too is, I guess, to dip into software a little bit, ‘fail fast’. Like, if you’re going to hit this many no’s anyway, you better get those no’s quickly and get them out of the way so you can move on to the next one.

Courtney: Yeah. He did say, though, like your goal is to basically ask a woman out so that she can probably tell you no, but you should ask her in a way where she feels, like, safe and non-threatened. And it’s, like, interesting of you to say that when you’re simultaneously saying people need to get drunk more, they need to go out to the bar and make mistakes more. Because you know what makes women feel real fucking safe? Men who approach them when they’re drunk off their ass. So the elephant in the room this whole time, that never fully showed its face but maybe poked its trunk into the room, was this concept of a high value male. Which is very icky to even say. Because it is extremely Andrew Tate coded. It is extremely red pill rhetoric.

Courtney: But without saying those words literally, he was trying to describe those things a lot of the time. He was saying, “You need to make more money. You need to go to the gym. You need to be stronger. You need to be able to provide financially. You need to–” He said something like he raised his sons to always pay when– when he’s in the presence of a woman, he needs to always pay. So even though he didn’t say ‘high value’, that was what he was sort of dancing around and what he was describing essentially. And it’s fascinating because if more sex cures society’s ills, if that rescues us from dangerous lonely men, if that rescues us from population collapse, if it, you know, sex is so often positioned as more sex equals better society… From all these different angles that we’ve been talking about, and then some which we haven’t even gotten to this time, that sure sounds like sex is a need.

Courtney: It sounds like sex should be owed. And that very quickly bleeds into rape culture. Because it is. But instead of taking the, you know, “I am owed sex, I deserve sex.” They do this bootstrappy conservative rhetoric. They do a, like, pull yourselves up from the bootstraps and make yourself a better man. Which I almost don’t know how to feel about. Because I agree with you when you’re like men are the ones who need to fix this problem, but they individualize it to such a big level. They’re like each individual man must be in charge of becoming a better man. Which, you know, maybe on some minor level that always is. but this is a systemic societal issue we’re talking about too. So that cannot be the only answer. But I kind of like it better than what is technically this– the– I don’t want to say socialist equivalent. But okay, so go with me here for half a second.

Courtney: The listeners who know, know. Remember that– [chuckles] Remember that guy who we were famously victimized by– [chuckles] Remember when he said that sex work should not only be legalized but it should be subsidized by the government as a necessary mental health service? And he just could not figure out why he was getting backlash to that. Even when there is an agreement, even when there is finances involved, it goes back to ‘sex is a right’. This is something we’ve talked about before, where even politicians have said sex is a right. People have a right to sex. You absolutely do not, under any circumstances, have just like a human right to have sex because it inherently involves at least one other person. And you do not have a right to that person’s body. No matter how much you want it.

Royce: Yeah, underlying any national laws or in any– anything that is on paper are the, you know, fundamental human rights, and body autonomy is a part of that. So there is no discussion that can happen around that. Because you can’t have one without violating body autonomy.

Courtney: Yes, and that is like– The defense of the ‘sex work should be a mental health service provided by the government’ was well, I’ve heard of cases, I know people who were, you know, pulled off the ledge, brought back from the brink of– brought back from the brink of suicide. They were going to end their life, but then they had a wonderful encounter with a sex worker who, you know, saw them and touched them and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And sure, I believe that that has happened. There are a lot of sex workers out there that are great people. But they are also not therapists. And it is not their job to keep you from hurting yourself. Because whether it is a sex worker or a partner, or just an acquaintance or a friend, you cannot extort sex out of someone by threatening to hurt yourself.

Courtney: That’s something that happened to me. When I was a teenager I had a guy who I was not even particularly close friends with, just an acquaintance, didn’t even ask me out in a romantic way at all, but was just like, “I’m gonna kill myself, maybe I won’t if you have sex with me.” And I’m like, “Excuse me?” Like that, yeah, so I have very little patience for that. So, but like this is a thing people should have access to, so the government should do it. That, on a very surface level, is a more socialist, more left solution to this. And this is a more conservative, like, just bootstrap it, each individual man needs to do better. I almost kind of like it better than the alternative when we’re in the context of this conversation. Which tells me that the context of this conversation fundamentally sucks if I like the bootstrap method better than the social service method.

Royce: Well, the bootstrap method doesn’t violate body autonomy.

Courtney: [laughs] Yeah.

Royce: Like, that just shows you– This is one of those– This is one of those points that people who really love horseshoe theory will point to.

Courtney: [laughs] Yes.

Royce: You went too far.

Courtney: You went too far, it became a circle. Um, but yeah, the last anecdote, because I just remembered this and I cannot believe we brought it up yet, because we were shocked and we paused the episode to rant about it while we were listening. They cited ISIS.

Royce: Oh yeah, I forgot about that.

Courtney: How did we forget about ISIS? [laughs]

Royce: This was on Trevor Noah’s podcast.

Courtney: Yep.

Royce: And I think the context was: Scott was trying to point out basically the underlying needs or forms of fulfillment that motivate young men, and then said–

Courtney: Like, how do we reach them?

Royce: Yeah. And then said, “Well, look at ISIS. Look at all the young men that joined a violent terrorist organization. They were promised that they would get access to women and they were paid. They gave them jobs and sex.” And no–

Courtney: They gave them money and women literally.

Royce: And nowhere in there did any of the three people say, “But that’s bad though.”

Courtney: [laughs] But you’re literally talking about ISIS. No, they were all like, “You’re right.” Like they’re– They’re promising them money and women.

Royce: Maybe the fact that so many young men are motivated by money and women as a commodity, not as people, is bad though!

Courtney: [laughs] I could not believe that. And yeah, the– the two hosts were just like, “Uh-huh, yeah, yeah, I’ve, I’ve seen it. Yes, ISIS does do that.” [laughs] But yeah, and I mean that kind of loops back to– I mean Christiana was saying like, “But what if friends? What if men can be friends and be their own social circles and have, you know, deeper relationships that aren’t romantic?” And he’s just like, “That is just not the world we’re living in.”

Royce: Scott is like, “Impossible.”

Courtney: Impossible. Men need sex! And if they don’t have sex they’re dangerous. So how do we get men more sex. And more money. That was also a big concern of his. He was saying the men he coaches, he’s always like, “You gotta start making money, you got to get that hunger for money. Once you start making a little money and realizing how awesome money is, you’ll want to get more.” And it’s like, ooh, I hope you don’t apply that same logic to women.

Royce: How do we get Scott to invest in a new evolution of young men called homosociable?

Courtney: Homosociable!

Royce: Then maybe young men can have friends.

Courtney: Because, yeah, even– I don’t even like the asocial thing, like the asexual asocial. Because not all asexual people are asocial, and like not all asocial people are dangerous either. Some people are totally allowed to be asocial.

Royce: Yeah, I mean, that’s just– That’s the kind of common, like, mental health neurodivergent ableism that leads to a lot of correlating with the idea of a dangerous loner.

Courtney: And I think that is going to be all for today. So that is going to bring us to our featured MarketplACE vendor. This week we are shouting out Funktechnisch, where you can find character design and illustration commissions specializing in queer and TTRPG art. If you do not have a commission in mind that you are ready to order, there are also a couple of very cool little stickers available right now. There’s a hollow T-Rex skull sticker that has rainbows, rainbow coloring to it. Very cool, love a good T-Rex. There’s also a Medusa sticker. Definitely recommend checking it out.

Courtney: Or, if you are just feeling generous, you can donate to this creator’s ko-fi, because aces have had a lot of heat on us very recently. And I don’t know, I’m just saying, maybe we deserve some money, maybe our MarketplACE vendors deserve some money. So, as always, you can find those links in the description, on the show notes on our website, as well as the description box on YouTube. And, never forget, you can simply go to theacecouple.com/marketplace to see our entire roster of vendors with a diversity of products, artwork, services. I know anytime I need to pick up a gift, or if I’m trying to look for something in particular, that is my first stop is to go to the MarketplACE and see if any of our vendors on there have what I am looking for. And I encourage all of you to do the same. As always, thanks so much for being here and we will talk to you all next time. Goodbye.