“The Ick”

Transcript Transcribed by Laura M.

Courtney: Hello everyone and welcome back. My name is Courtney. I am here with my spouse, Royce, and together we are The Ace Couple. And today we’re talking about a concept – perhaps you’ve heard of it – known as the ick. And if you are anything like me, you are so deeply confused by it. Because I cannot relate in any way to anybody I have ever heard talking about the ick.

Royce: Yeah, this was a bit of a confusing one for me too. Like, I instantly understood what they were saying in the moment, but I didn’t grasp how big of a deal it seems to be for some people.

Courtney: That’s the part that gets me. Because people will talk about it as like: once you get the ick, it is a deal breaker. And we were watching one show at one point called Nobody Wants This, and this was the first time I think I’ve seen the ick portrayed in, like, fictional media. And that was very much how it was presented. Like, oh, this woman is really into this guy and gonna meet the family for the first time, kind of a thing. And she just, like, hates what he shows up in, like, what he’s wearing. And she’s like, “Oh, no, I have the ick.” Now, all of a sudden, everything he says and does is such a problem because he wore a jacket that she didn’t like, and now everything he says is goofy.

Courtney: And she doesn’t like what he’s saying. And he brought flowers for her mom and that can’t be either. And although in the grander context of that show they did get back on better terms, everyone was like, “Time to cut and run, babe.” Like, you got the ick, you cannot fight it. This is just your life now. Once you get the ick, this person is just icky now. You can’t live with icky. And they seemed like such small, trivial things where the only thing I could even remotely try to equate to it in my own experience is, like, certain instances of, like, misophonia. Like if– if a particular obnoxious mouth sound happens, like, in that moment that will be very viscerally, like, repulsive to me. But once that sound isn’t happening anymore, there’s no problem.

Royce: Yeah, the feeling doesn’t linger nor does it reshape your view of the person.

Courtney: Exactly. So that’s the brand of the ick that I hear people talk about and just go like, “Are you okay?” Especially because so many of the things that allegedly might give someone the ick seem so minor. Like, I remember having a conversation with you at one point because Millie Bobby Brown was getting married. And she married John Bon Jovi’s son. And there was all this renewed publicity around her because everyone is so morbidly fascinated with child stars who are no longer children and doing adult things like getting married. So there were all these articles popping up. And this was also during a time where there was a big wave of discourse about the ick, and she was talking about her ick, which seems so nonsensical to me. But I remember this conversation with you because it was hilarious. Because I just said at one point, not even opening or reading these articles, just seeing all the headlines, it was like: Millie Bobby Brown marries Bon Jovi’s son. And I just said, “Wow, I feel really bad for this guy because every single article just calls him Bon Jovi’s son.” And surely he has his own name. And you just came back to me with a, “Is that the poor guy who can’t use umbrellas?”

Royce: Yeah, poor wet guy.

Courtney: [laughs] Poor wet guy who can’t use umbrellas.

Royce: I think–

Courtney: Because she was saying that was her ick when guys use umbrellas or carry umbrellas.

Royce: Yeah. I can’t remember the context. I think I was looking that up because we were talking about the ick, either from this show that we just brought up or from another instance of someone saying it. Because it did feel like we were hearing people talk about it more frequently in a dedicated period of time. But yeah, I think the underlying thing was the image of a man holding an umbrella was somehow, like, emasculating in her mind or something like that.

Courtney: Yeah.

Royce: Which–

Courtney: Bonkers.

Royce: The thing about the way that you just described the ick portrayed in the TV show really feels like a heightened state of anxiety. For me, the only time when a bunch of little seemingly random things are suddenly very important is when I’m very anxious. And that snowballs. And so I could see how the main character in the show had this big event where boyfriend was coming to meet parents, which is a notoriously high anxiety situation portrayed in media a lot, and having something just a little off just triggered that more and more and more and more off of expectation.

Courtney: Yeah. And that’s at least a little more legible to me than the way some other people talk about it. Because like, “I get the ick if men use umbrellas.” Must they be wet? [laughs] Are you gonna carry the umbrella for them?

Royce: I feel like that would be even worse.

Courtney: Well, yeah! Like, I thought that was like an old-timey gender roles kind of a thing, like, the man holds his umbrella out to shelter you, the fair lady.

Royce: Only if your other shoulder is soaked. [Courtney laughs] That’s the only way it’s acceptable.

Courtney: It’s only allowed. You must be at least partially wet. But I pulled up– because I’m very cool and hip to the slang, I pulled up the Wikipedia page for the ick, and this is what I was giggling about before we started the microphone. The picture, the reference picture for the ick on Wikipedia is just a picture of a guy’s feet, and he’s wearing flip-flops. And it says: some individuals may get the ick from a man walking angrily in flip flops, such as these. [laughs]

Royce: Okay.

Courtney: Thank you so much for the helpful reference photo.

Royce: That’s interesting that you immediately compared this to misophonia. Because I can hear the sound in my head of someone walking angrily with flip flops.

Courtney: Well.

Royce: Because it’s not just passively wearing flip flops. It’s the smack, smack, smack, smack on like a sidewalk.

Courtney: Yeah, well, it is very interesting the discussion that has been brought up about, like, the ick happens often when someone, like, deviates a little too far from the gender role you would like them to fit in. And I don’t think umbrellas are gendered, but there are some other things that I can think about in that regard. And I remember, I don’t– Did you ever run into this, circa – I want to say – like 2005-2006, there was a very specific wave of homophobia and flip-flops, where people were calling flip-flops like the gay man shoe. And all of a sudden there were all of these straight guys who were like, “I can’t wear flip-flops because that’s gay.”

Royce: I was not aware of this, no.

Courtney: Well, that is what I encountered during that era. As well as some very offended straight homophobes who live in, like, Florida who are like, “Hey now! Flip-flops are not gay. I wear flip-flops and I am extremely straight. I am just a Floridian.” That should be like– [laughs] I just thought of like, we’ve talked about Hot Or Not before, and then there are all these quizzes of like, is it Shakespeare or is it like that– It could be like.

Royce: Are you about to say, “Is it gay or is it Florida?”

Courtney: Is it gay or is it a Floridian? [giggles] No, terrible! I was not about to say that, Royce How dare you suggest such a thing?

Royce: I feel like that would be one of the easier ‘Is it this or that?’

Courtney: Until this reference photo from the Wikipedia page for the ick comes up, then you tell me. So apparently the phrase was popularized by Love Island in 2017, and I’m going to need you to tell me if this is one of the weird allo shows I’ve actually watched or not.

Royce: Love Island?

Courtney: Yes.

Royce: I think so. Let me check.

Courtney: They all bleed together. There are so many islands.

Royce: You talked about Love Island in Weird Allo Reality Shows 3, back in February of this year.

Courtney: Well, there we have it. I have actually watched this show. Probably not that particular year. But that seems to be credited as the sort of modern resurgence of using it. And then the popularity skyrocketed from there on TikTok, where catching the ick and talking about what various icks you have really caught on in 2020. Great year, 2020.

Royce: Lots of time for introspection in that year.

Courtney: And yet... So I was curious because as silly as, like, ‘umbrellas’ sounds to me, I do want to know what people report as their icks. And I have here an article summarizing a TikTok study about what’s most likely to give daters the ick. So of course this is just people on TikTok and what they’re reporting during this wave of discussion. And it’s broken down to most common icks. Women’s icks in one category and men’s icks in another. And the number one category for women’s icks is too feminine. 40% of people talking about the ick used examples of something that is societally deemed to be too feminine. The example given here is when he laid his head on my shoulder. And if that’s the case, this is so painful. It also seems if strict gender roles or ideas of gender roles place such a heavy part of this, or such a high percentage, I would also then have to assume that queer people either have vastly different icks than like cis het people. Or I’d be really curious to know if that is a demographic of people that just don’t even experience the ick at all, or at this level, at the same percentages.

Royce: I have some thoughts. Can you read some more examples first?

Courtney: Uh, yes. So, under ‘too feminine’ for women’s icks: publicly embarrassing is number two. Which is a weird one for me because I think feeling embarrassed publicly is kind of its own emotion. So I’m wondering if you are really just feeling embarrassed or if you get this added additional layer of an ick on top of embarrassment. Because someone else acting in a manner you deem to be too feminine, like, that’s not an inward feeling that you would have, but someone being embarrassing next to you could bring embarrassment on yourself also, that’s a feeling some people feel. Annoying speech, number three, followed by fashion faux pas, followed by misogynistic. And that’s one that I just think is a red flag.

Royce: Yeah, I don’t think bigotry is really an ick.

Courtney: No, no. Because that’s bad enough. Like icks seem– I don’t know, it’s usually discussed as something more trivial.

Royce: It is. It’s kind of like if someone said that their ick was someone being manipulative or abusive or violent, you know? That’s just a toxic personality trait.

Courtney: Yeah, yeah. So misogynistic, I question that one being there. Then it’s other/not specified, which the example they gave is the sound of his feet slapping the floor. Presumably he was angry and wearing flip-flops. I read the Wikipedia page, I know. And then the final three in this list are overly focused on social media, physical appearance, and too trendy.

Royce: And those were all women’s?

Courtney: Those were women’s, yes.

Royce: What are on the men’s side?

Courtney: The men’s side, the number one is too trendy. Number two is publicly embarrassing, followed by annoying speech, physical appearance, too masculine– I notice is a lot lower on the list than too feminine was. Then overly focused on social media, other/unspecified. The example for other/unspecified on men was talking about girls she just met as best friends. And then the final one on the list here is vanity.

Royce: So I think there are a few different categories here. I think we can safely throw out the, like, again, toxicity, like the– the bigotry as wrong specification. But there were some cases that did seem to back up your comment of misophonia earlier. It was a sound thing. And the majority of them seem to be where the person feeling the ick has an overly rigid idea of the person that they like in their mind and that reality doesn’t meet that expectation. And I think that that is a big manifestation of gender roles, in some cases.

Courtney: Well, gender roles can–

Royce: Influence it.

Courtney: Yes, heavily influence it.

Royce: But in both cases, I think that both with the having a strong reaction to a particular sound and sort of feeling that and then using it to lessen your view of someone, and with these little points where someone doesn’t match your imagination, those are cases where I think the person feeling the ick has a lack of self-awareness and like emotional response or control to actually feel where this is coming from and what it is and being able to reason with it. And I would expect, like you said earlier, that at the very least, queer people are going to have– they’re either going to have different things than cis people, than straight people, or it is going to be less. And I think part of that is that being not of the majority or of the status quo already forces at least a little bit of self-introspection, so maybe you’re a little closer to noticing those things that are off. Either that, or I guess the other side of that is rates of queer depression and everything, you may have gone through therapy or other exercises to deal with mental health things that have forced you to look at things like this a little closer.

Courtney: We queers do so love our therapy. Yeah, and you know, according to this study– And I struggle with the framework of some of this anyway. Anytime psychology papers start talking about narcissism, I have serious questions and concerns. But as part of this research, these researchers also sought out to level measures of disgust sensitivity, narcissism, and perfectionism amongst these folks talking about the ick. And this is why papers like this are so interesting, because if I were a researcher, based on my lived experience and the disconnect I’m seeing from what I have and can feel versus what other people are articulating, this is not the framework that I would be also looking for. Because to parallel it once again with misophonia or other similar things where you do just feel, like, really repulsed in the moment, to me, that is not what defines or creates this sensation that people are calling the ick. To me, it’s the inability to accept that, or let it go.

Courtney: So rather than being like, “I wanna see how sensitive these people are to disgust. I wanna see if they are perfectionists.” To me, this– I’d be looking more at forgiveness and, like, personality styles. Because there are absolutely people who– on all sides of the spectrum, there are people who can be way too forgiving, who do have extremely toxic partners and relationships, and give people way too much the benefit of the doubt for too long to their own detriment. And then there are folks on the opposite end of the spectrum that will, like, cut someone off just like that [snaps fingers]. Sometimes even if they’re really good friends, very close friends, very close family members. I have known people like this where I have been baffled looking at them like, oh, you had this best friend for 20 years and then they did something to upset you that seemed a little minor and you just cut them off hard because you’re like, “We’re done. You hurt me. And we’re done.” And I can’t fathom someone like that either. But this seems like maybe a lower stakes version of that because most people talk about the ick in a dating phase. Like, I am dating someone, but we aren’t like–

Royce: Like early in the– Early after meeting, like, early in the relationship.

Courtney: Yeah, that’s what it seems like most people start saying like, “Oh, that’s when I get the ick.” And so sometimes people do as a result of getting the ick cut that person off. And that is just never my personality. I err on the side of sometimes admittedly too much forgiveness and finding a balance like that is something I’ve always looked for. But whether it’s something like the ick where it’s like, “I can’t come back from this,” and I’m looking at it like, “That’s so minor…” If everything else is wonderful, if everything else is great and you’re enjoying this human and you don’t like that he rested his head on your shoulder…? Like, really? You’re gonna cut it off because of that?

Courtney: It’s the same sort of baffled feeling I get to people who do cut off very close relationships for what seemed to me to be a lot more minor than the gravity of the relationship warrants. So it’s just fascinating to me that researchers are like, “These are the things we want to look for and measure.” Because how much of this is forgiveness? Like, if you’re not a forgiving person at all, and someone early enough in a relationship gives you something minor, but you’re like, “That’s enough, that’s enough for me, I can’t look past this.” I don’t know. That’s what I would be questioning if I were a researcher. Also this line, this– I want to meet this person and talk to them for one to two hours.

Royce: One to two?

Courtney: One to two hours.

Royce: Just enough time to get out all the questions, but not too much.

Courtney: It says: “On average, participants had experienced the ick approximately six times, with one person reporting 300 instances of the ick.”

Royce: Did they record them?

Courtney: I don’t know! But I need to speak to this person for one to two hours. How many of these were different people? I’m [sighs] I’m– So many questions. [reading] “Experiencing the ick – it goes on to say – isn’t a complete deal breaker, but it’s close. Results indicated that upon having the ick, 26% terminated the relationship immediately, while 42% ended the relationship later. Most participants did not share the ick experience with the partner who caused it, however, nearly everyone shared it with someone else, most often with friends or family members.” Which is really interesting to me, because there’s two ways we could view that. That could either be: you should communicate with your partner better. Or it could be: you know it’s ridiculous and this is 100% like your problem. And even though it does bother you a little bit, somewhere deep down you’re like, “This is a me problem.” You see a guy holding an umbrella, and even though it icks you out, you’re like, “I shouldn’t be holding it against him that he doesn’t want to be rained upon.”

Royce: Yeah, there’s probably something there of, like, “Okay, I don’t want to date this person, but I also don’t want to give them a complex about this thing.”

Courtney: Yeah.

Royce: There may also be this feeling that– There may also be this most likely incorrect feeling that the person feeling the ick can’t do anything about it, and that having a conversation is just going to cause conflict and make it worse. Which I think there is some overlap with at least some instances of how people experience cringe. Like I’ve occasionally felt or heard other people describe the feeling of cringe sometimes as like seeing someone do something that you have specifically learned not to do yourself.

Courtney: Yeah, kind of like vicarious embarrassment.

Royce: Yeah. But that is to say, the other person doing the thing isn’t the problem. The problem is your perception of it, or whatever internal struggle you have with that situation.

Courtney: I do find it interesting that this article ends with a little paragraph that says: “Is the ick a red flag or just pickiness?” And it has a wishy-washy answer. It doesn’t say either way. But it does say, “Many of the ick triggers aren’t qualities we might associate with long-term fulfilling relationships. For example, you could have a perfectly healthy relationship with someone who wears jorts or likes astrology.” Which again has me asking if queer people don’t experience the ick. [laughs] Jorts and astrology? Come on.

Royce: Depends on how into astrology.

Courtney: Yeah, it kind of just asks you to self-reflect at the end. It’s like, well, “It’s important to listen to your gut feelings, it’s also worth considering whether that sudden wave of impulsion signals a real incompatibility or simply reflects superficial sensitivities.”

Royce: Yeah.

Courtney: Hashtag:Let Millie Bobby Brown’s Husband Use Umbrellas.

Royce: Does that guy ever get his own name?

Courtney: [laughs] First, he was Bon Jovi’s son. Then he was Millie Bobby Brown’s husband. Soon he will be known as the man who reclaimed umbrellas.

Courtney: Okay, so I think it would be fun if we look up some personal stories, personal anecdotes, people who say they’ve gotten the ick, what the ick was, how it made them feel. Because I am so very curious about this. And where do we go for all things love and sex? None other than Cosmopolitan magazine. I found a section in an article here that’s just: Women who have experienced the ick explain what it feels like. We have four examples here. One: “The ick never lies. Don’t ignore it,” says Vanessa. [reading] “I’d been going out with this guy for a couple weeks before we had sex for the first time. After that, I found him a bit annoying, but I just told myself it was nothing and carried on as normal. Then about three months in, something in my head just completely switched and I just couldn’t stand being around him. His voice annoyed me, his jokes weren’t funny anymore, I clammed up when he tried to hug or kiss me.”

Courtney: [reading] “I was young and didn’t really get it, though, so just stayed with him, but bitched to my friends relentlessly. One day we were in a cab, and he caught me texting my best friend, saying how much I couldn’t stand him. That’s when I realized I was being a huge dick and had to pull the plug. We stayed friends after, and the ick miraculously went away as soon as we broke up. I feel bad for how I’d been, but I think I was so young I didn’t really get it. Now I see that there’s a big difference between your partner getting on your nerves and the full-blown ick. Teachable moment, the ick never lies. Don’t ignore it.” Everything about that is fascinating to me. First of all, she didn’t have one specific triggering thing, but it sounds like the beginning of the end was having sex. She’s like, “After we had sex, I found him a bit annoying. And then it got worse.” But also, everything about him bothers you. And then you break up and stay friends? And everything is fine. Everything about that screams that is a you problem.

Royce: Yeah, I don’t even know how to describe it, but–

Courtney: Everything about that screams that is a you problem.

Royce: There is some kind of hang-up there.

Courtney: And it seems like there was some kind of lack of romantic compatibility to some degree, but is the ick at times a substitute, like, placeholder emotion when you can’t quite figure out what the actual problem is?

Royce: I mean, probably. And this is why I was relating it back to, at least the triggering things, as something akin to an anxiety response, or at least the closest that I can feel to that as an anxiety response. It’s probably just a very visceral, bad feeling that you can’t quite put your finger on.

Courtney: Yeah, it does sound like you’re taking it out on the other person, though. Like, you personally are not happy being in a relationship with this person, therefore, everything about them is annoying and terrible. Well, given your mentions of anxiety, number two here is interesting. [reading] “The ick manifested in a kind of semi-panic attack, says Amber. I met a guy years ago on a dating app. He was handsome and funny, kind and keen. In the days running up to the first date, he had been in NYC and arrived to the pub brandishing a bag of gifts for me, small and silly things, but nonetheless I could feel the ick rising in my throat. It felt like a lot for a first date. We went on a couple more dates, and then one evening I came home to my flat, through two very imposing security gates, and stopped dead in my tracks when I saw my front door. The doormat was covered in potted geraniums. Like, a lot of them. I had mentioned in passing that I quite liked them, and there was a handwritten card containing an elaborate itinerary for the next date. The ick manifested in a kind of semi-panic attack, and then I pulled the plug. Too much, too soon.”

Royce: That one I feel like is a little more understandable. I mean–

Courtney: Yes.

Royce: I think that the– there’s could still be a layer of communication here, but I think that grand unrequited gestures or surprises can throw a lot of people off.

Courtney: Absolutely. And sometimes it is related to a very toxic underlying behavior too. Like there are things like love bombing, there are people who do things like this that do exhibit stalkerish tendencies. So to me, like, “Oh, I got the ick and it gave me a panic attack.” To me, this is more like– that is a valid: if you are not feeling safe, listen to your gut. I almost wouldn’t even classify that as the ick in the way that I hear the average person talk about it. [reading] “I was unsure of him anyway, says Carmen. I was dating this guy who I was a little unsure of anyway, and then witnessed him try to do sexy dancing. There is nothing less sexy than a man with zero rhythm moving like a drunk dad at a wedding.” This is one that is really interesting because there’s an element of sexual attraction here, and to some degree some of the other ones might be, but they’ve seemed a lot more either tied to gender roles or seemingly innocuous things. Because I’m already, by default, not going to understand, like, feeling sexual attraction or not feeling it when you should be or you want to be. That’s already outside of my realm of experience. But dancing’s fun!

Royce: Yeah, but this is the dancing equivalent of grabbing a guitar and staring into someone’s eyes for three minutes as you play a song.

Courtney: Is it? No, those are two very different things.

Royce: It didn’t sound like it. This sounded really awkward.

Courtney: Well, hold on. Are you thinking this was in a one-on-one situation?

Royce: Yeah, did I miss something?

Courtney: Well, I don’t know, ’cause actually now it’s unspecified. I was thinking they’re at a club, and he’s just a terrible dancer.

Royce: Can you read that again?

Courtney: It doesn’t say it, it just says, “I was unsure of him anyway until I witnessed him try to do sexy dancing.”

Royce: Oh, okay, I guess.

Courtney: So is our judgment totally contingent on the context here?

Royce: Maybe I think the phrase sexy dancing made me assume this was, like, private in a bedroom.

Courtney: I forgot that people do that. But now that you say it, yeah, people do that sometimes. [laughs]

Royce: I mean, for the other scenario, if someone is trying to do sexy dancing in a club, that may also just be really awkward.

Courtney: No, let him have fun. Let him be the drunk dad at the wedding.

Royce: I again am– I have this in my head of this is not just a person going out and being themselves, it’s them doing something around you that is making you uncomfortable. Again, what is doing sexy dancing for a man just like in the middle of the dance floor alone? Like I don’t think that is the scenario we’re seeing.

Courtney: But if it is, I think that would be fun. [laughs] I can see that, I could see how context matters. But like if you are actually at a club or in a dancing situation, like if he’s just having fun but he is deeply unsexy, like let him do his deeply unsexy dance. But I also do wonder being– prefaced with, “I was already unsure of him anyway,” would her opinion have been drastically different if she was madly in love with this guy? Maybe, maybe not. Having not experienced the ick, I don’t have experience to draw from. Oh my. Alright, fourth and final one from this article. [reading] “The thought of him licking my vagina made me want to die, says Georgina.”

Royce: Okay.

Courtney: [reading] “I went downstairs to my front room after a house party and found a friend of a friend, Anton, sleeping on my sofa. We got chatting, went up to the room to watch trash TV, and ended up hanging out the whole of the next day, hooking up and having fairly decent sex. We hooked up again not long after on a night out with friends, then went on a dinner date shortly after that. And all of a sudden I looked at him across the table, chopsticks in hand, and the thought of him licking my vagina made me want to die. He didn’t necessarily do or say anything, but I noticed his hoodie and leather jacket combo was actually a two-in-one garment, not two separate ones. Which made me– which maybe put me off a bit, but after that, I had to break it off ASAP.”

Royce: Okay, that is another ‘introspection required’ one. You suddenly felt something very negative and very strong, but you don’t know exactly why.

Courtney: I– I also– Like, now if this hoodie and leather jacket were two separate items, we could make this happen. Like, you can’t hand the poor guy a seam ripper? You can’t make this work? Oh, wow, this is long. Okay, but this is gonna be fun. [reading] “I created an ick list that’s gone viral. Tell me I’m wrong.” Okay, this— ooh, this ick list.

Royce: Is this the person that had 300 icks?

Courtney: That wasn’t even how many icks you have. That was how many times have you experienced the ick. Which really has me thinking, like, is this just one excruciatingly common behavior and you sense it from every single person you’ve ever dated or is your ick list as long as this? So this is fun. We’re going to go through these and give our rapid fire commentary. “Taste testing ice cream with a baby spoon.”

Royce: So what about someone like you who just eats things like that with baby spoons all the time?

Courtney: Well, I imagine the taste testing part is like you’re at an ice cream shop and they give you the little, like, disposable spoon to try it on.

Royce: So free samples are ick?

Courtney: Apparently! I mean, get as many– do people not taste, like, as many free samples as they’re able to just to like pre-game the ice cream for ordering?

Royce: Unless you feel the people working there’s patience running thin.

Courtney: Right, like you take as many samples as you think you can get away with. But listen, if you think eating things with a tiny spoon is an ick, I’m gonna turn that back around and say you are a red flag. You are supposed to use tiny spoons for things. I’m sure we’ve mentioned yogurt spoons. We have an entire drawer of yogurt spoons. They must be small spoons.

Courtney: “Drinking from a bubbler.” Where are we now? Is this Wisconsin?

Royce: Bubblers are water fountains, right? And it’s like one state that calls them that?

Courtney: I think it’s Wisconsin.

Royce: Yes, it’s Wisconsin.

Courtney: Okay. So no ice cream samples, no water fountain on a hot day. “Getting off a chairlift.” Does that mean no skiing? “Waiting for the green man before crossing the road.”

Royce: You mean the symbol that says that you can walk safely?

Courtney: Yes. This woman only dates Jaywalkers. “Doggy paddling. Running for the bus. Wears sockets.” What is a socket?

Royce: I’m having trouble finding that one. Are they talking about gauges? Wait, no.

Courtney: I don’t think so. Because even though I don’t have a TikTok account to watch this, I see a screenshot that says: point of view your millennial teacher walks into class wearing sockets. Aren’t they just talking about no-show socks?

Royce: So sock-ettes, like E-T-T-E, like small things? That would make sense I did see a little bit about–

Courtney: It’s spelled S-O-C-K-E-T-S.

Royce: Okay.

Courtney: Sockets.

Royce: I did see something about a burgeoning millennial/Gen Z war on socks.

Courtney: Well yeah, Gen Z are starting to wear like the socks that we wore kids in the 90s again.

Royce: Yeah. Slash also the socks I’ve always worn because wearing no-show socks means that the insides of shoes would be rubbing against my ankles and that’s a sensory problem.

Courtney: I never even liked wearing those socks back then because those socks were the sensory problem for me. Okay, so the embarrassingly long time that we had to pause the microphone to research this aside, that’s what we’re going with, with wearing sockets. Next is: “Where’s a backpack in the bar on a Friday night.” Apparently all the other nights are acceptable. “When they can’t find somewhere to put their bags in the overhead locker on a plane.” Now that just sounds classist. “Uses emojis during a fight. Drinks sippy yogurt.” What is sippy yogurt?

Royce: I don’t know.

Courtney: Oh no. I’m not gonna stop the podcast to google that one. What if, eating yogurt with baby spoon? Does that create a double ick? “Tries to start a conga line on a night out.” Why don’t we let people have fun? Let people dance! Uh-oh my goodness. “Sunnies on the back of the neck.” I don’t know what that means either. This is embarrassing.

Royce: I can’t even tell if this is generational slang or geographical slang.

Courtney: Right, I thought we were in Wisconsin because of the bubbler, but I’ve never heard anyone from the Midwest say the word sunnies because I clearly don’t even know what that means.

Courtney: “Saying the word froth.” So I will say there are some words that profoundly bother me in a way that is viscerally on par with a misophonia reaction. They are few and far between, but there are some of those for me. But again, that is not a thing that, like, makes me look down on someone. If it’s a common enough word, if it’s someone that I would actually, like, spend an extremely large amount of time with, it might be like, “Hey, please don’t use that word around me.”

Royce: Yeah, the individual word thing is something that I’ve never experienced. I feel like it took me a while growing up before I heard that that is even an experience that people had. And then it took a little bit longer to realize that it was actually serious. Like it wasn’t just, “Oh, this annoys me.” It was actually something visceral.

Courtney: Well, the really common one is moist. A lot of people will say that they don’t like that word to a point where I almost think it did get trendy in the same way like saying you love bacon got like, “Oh, I love bacon and I hate the word moist.” Which, sure, I’m sure that word genuinely does viscerally bother some people, but I also think that’s one where maybe the association with the word is more of a problem than the word itself for some people. But my few words like that that really bother me are normally very rare, and very specific to me.

Courtney: “When they move to the shade because the sun is too hot.” “Lycra. Spandex.”

Royce: Oh, okay.

Courtney: “Orders a takeaway espresso shot.” Oh, we’re in Australia! Next one is “Lives in Bondi Junction.” Well now is a bubbler the same thing in Australia that it is in Wisconsin?

Royce: Well are these all coming from one person or are they aggregates?

Courtney: This is one person who created an ick list that went viral, so yes, this is literally like someone’s notes app, a bulleted list of their icks that they published online. But yeah, “Lives in Bondi Junction” is an ick. And knowing nothing about that suburb, that area, I don’t think where someone lives is allowed to be an ick. Huh, what do you know? Bubblers are drinking fountains in Australia. Why does Australia have that in common with Wiscon? So you’re telling me that guys who live in Australia are not allowed to drink from drinking fountains or sit in the shade when the sun is hot? “Claps when the plane lands. Says what’s the damage when the bill comes. Has a signature scent. When they bend over to pick up doggy poo.” Now, is it that they’re picking it up or is it the bending over that’s the problem? Do they have to squat to pick it up?

Royce: That one seems oddly specific, so maybe it is the squatting down to pick something up instead of bending over.

Courtney: It’s all so specific. “Golf is his personality trait. Face sunscreen not rubbed in correctly. Likes craft beer. Brings a speaker to the beach. Travels with a soft shell suitcase. Rock climbing.”

Royce: That’s it, just rock climbing?

Courtney: Rock climbing. “When his phone’s flashlight is on accidentally. When they can’t walk on pebble beaches. Photos at Burning Man on their dating profile. Blowing on food to cool it down. Drinks milk. Budgie smugglers.” What is that?! “Budgie smugglers with fruit or animals on them. Stick to the classics.” So the fruit and animals are new wave budgie smugglers? Is that what I’m picking up from the context?

Royce: One moment. So is a budgie smuggler just a speedo or other tight-fitting swimsuit? I think that’s what it is. I think that’s the worst slang for a swimsuit.

Courtney: Oh… That’s terrible. It’s just so– Nope. Don’t like that. Don’t like that one bit. “Goes on cruise for a holiday. Drives a Hyundai Getz. Only having two pillows. Listens to Joe Rogan. His favorite ice cream flavor is hazelnut. Whispering. Gets butcher muesli at the cafe instead of eggs.” It’s oats? Can’t eat oats? Must eat eggs? “The name Alan. Losing their footing on the bus resulting in quick steps. Applying lip balm. Still uses a Hotmail address. Introduces themselves as an entrepreneur. Drinking from a straw. Anyone that went to Sydney Uni College.” Yeah, not knowing anything about Sydney Uni College, I don’t like, ‘you went to this college, you live in this place.’ “Standing there naked waiting for the shower to get hot.”

Royce: Some of these are so bizarre. I’m not jumping into cold water.

Courtney: Does that mean you have to stay dressed until the water is hot?

Royce: Oh, I guess that’s an alternative way to look at it.

Courtney: I guess either are options.

Royce: Neither of them are good options.

Courtney: “Talking about their gap year after the age of 21. Running with a backpack on. His favorite artist is John Mayer.” So I’m just gonna say it: these are not real icks. There’s no way. This is either an extremely picky person that is just actually listing everything they are picky about, or these are all things that, like, describe an ex. Like these are so specific, like oh if his favorite ice cream flavor is hazelnut. Like, you knew a guy whose favorite ice cream flavor was hazelnut, and presumably you just don’t like that guy. Either that or you made half of this up to sound quirky. Also, at what point when you have a list this large and this specific, at what point do we just call them turn-offs? Like, turn-offs are a concept that exists in theory, I am told.

Royce: Right.

Courtney: And I’ve always conceptualized the ick as being a different thing than just a turn-off. Like, it might have an element of a turn-off.

Royce: Well, if someone says that they have a preference or, you know, a turn-on or a turn-off, then that’s them. That’s them being picky. But if you say it’s an ick, you can remove responsibility from yourself.

Courtney: Oh, do you think?

Royce: I think so. I also– I agree with that list is probably not real. That list was probably made for entertainment value. I also– When you were about to say, at what point when– does a list get that long when you think to classify them otherwise? I thought you were going to say, “At what point in building a list this long do you just go, oh, maybe it’s me?”

Courtney: Well, that too. That too. Like, there absolutely is a thing, whether it’s being framed as an ick or a turn-off or as, like, red flags or hard no’s or whatever language you want to do, there is some cultural element where I have multiple times, be it on TikTok or a blog or social media, where people will almost, with a sense of pride, be like, “Here are my extremely high unattainable standards.” And I don’t know, it’s odd to me. I don’t understand. And actually, to give this person a little bit of a benefit of the doubt, I read this article a little further than just the list. She did source icks from other people, so these are not all just hers.

Royce: That’s what I was wondering, particularly when we were having trouble pinning down slang.

Courtney: Yeah, it does make it make a little more sense as to why some of these are so different. Like, the name Alan, that’s just one girl who hates a guy named Alan, right? But some of these, like, listens to Joe Rogan, like, yeah, that could actually be a red flag. That could be like, we are fundamentally incompatible at, like, a political level, you know. But then there’s ones like, “Running for the bus,” which is very much like can’t wear– can’t hold an umbrella coded. Although, even though that was not an example of just one person doing that, while looking it up, I have seen several of these. Like, I’m not gonna go through this list one at a time, but this one is a list of 53 icks. And this is one person saying, “This is my ultimate list of icks.” It’s like, I don’t know, you have 53 icks. Although, last note here, because you said something that was very interesting, and now I found an op-ed speaking to that a little more. You said, if you chalk something up to the ick, you’re offloading the personal responsibility. This op-ed for Glamour says: “Why the ick isn’t a superficial phrase used by picky women, but is actually a way of protecting ourselves from men who can’t handle rejection. We use the ick to soften the blow, to blame it on a psychological phenomenon we have no control over.”

Royce: Well, depending on the ick, I question the psychological phenomenon you have no control over. But that is interesting that it’s an understood “It’s not you, it’s me” thing?

Royce: Courtney and Royce:

Royce: Kind of.

Royce: Yeah.

Courtney: That’s like finding a pop psychology buzzword to say that old saying in a new way.

Royce: Yeah, that is not the way that I meant to offload responsibility, but this does go back to the very first one you mentioned, I think, where someone was in a relationship, felt a very visceral, “This is not working,” but then refused to talk about it with the person that they were with for whatever reason.

Courtney: Yeah, because I could see the offloading of responsibility being a couple of different ways. Like it could be you genuinely are very picky, superficial, your ick is something that is very much a you problem. But if you just say like, “Well, it’s the ick, nothing I can do about it,” then that is like a– I guess, a selfish use of offloading the responsibility. But in this, when we do know that we do live in a misogynistic world and in situations of, like, cis hetero dating, especially early on, sometimes you do start getting red flags, or you do start feeling unsafe, and when you already feel unsafe, it feels even less safe to break something off.

Royce: Yeah, I understand, particularly in a situation where this early in a relationship. Where, like, I feel like if you’ve been in a relationship with someone for a long period of time, you owe them at least some amount of a conversation for breaking something off.

Courtney: Right.

Royce: Unless they transgressed in, like, a very serious manner.

Courtney: Yeah.

Royce: But if it’s someone you’ve been on two or three dates on and you’re starting to get some red flags, I don’t blame anyone for deciding definitively that it’s over, and then breaking it to them in a way that will reduce your own emotional labor.

Courtney: Right. Because it’s also, like, in itself unsafe to tell someone that you feel unsafe with them. Like, there are situations where very angry men, whether or not they are actually an imminent threat to you, as soon as they are aware that you don’t feel safe, that can escalate anger also. So this is interesting. I don’t think this is how everybody uses it, because there are certainly situations where, like, on TikTok, “Too feminine” being the top answer for what gives someone the ick, that is entrenched societal gender norms. And I always think those should be challenged. Those should always be questioned and reevaluated, not only on a societal level, but within your own relationship, your own context, yourself and the people around you. That is something that is healthy to do.

Courtney: Although I do think there are some interesting points in this article, it does say that the ick is a female phenomenon commonly found in hetero relationships and that it is a word rarely uttered by men or queer women. I already assumed it was less prevalent in queer communities, but – going back to the original TikTok research – what they did find was that women were more familiar with the Ick and were more likely to have experienced the ick than men. However, among those who had experienced the ick, men and women reported experiencing it the same amount. So it does seem like at least amongst people talking about it on TikTok, women are talking about it more. But when you isolate people who have felt the ick, men and women, they, in their own personal experience, have encountered it at equal amounts.

Royce: I think that makes sense in that we’ve described this as a visceral feeling that is difficult to pin down, and until someone tells you, “Oh, this is the word for this feeling,” you know, you aren’t going to know to classify it.

Courtney: Right.

Royce: There’s also probably some aspect of– I wasn’t sure how to describe this, I almost flipped into economic terms and said supply and demand. [Courtney laughs] The fact that there are in our society, there tend to be more men pursuing women than women pursuing men. That–

Courtney: Basic supply and demand, baby!

Royce: That could create a shift in what demographics are more likely to break up with a suitor of theirs for a reason such as this.

Courtney: Yeah. And the thing that I find interesting about it, because this, this article is saying, like, “People will often just chalk it up to women being too picky, but there’s something deeper. It’s not just women being too picky.” But it cites examples from a Reddit thread where women are talking about what their icks are. And the author of this op-ed says, “While I was reading through these, some of these are valid deal breakers.” One example cited here was– the comment was: “He got his mom to cut his toenails for him. He did not have a medical condition or anything that would prevent him from being able to do that himself. It was not a one-off thing. He never cut his toenails. His mom always did it for him.” And in the author’s opinion, she says that’s a really valid deal breaker because he might have mothering syndrome whereby he expected women in his life to look after him. And–

Royce: Yeah, is that gonna pass to you upon marriage?

Courtney: Right.

Royce: That is a concern.

Courtney: So that is the framework we’re approaching this at. But where I can see those situations, we already saw that in some of those things, like the very first article, misogyny being one of them. The example on misogyny was like, “He loudly shushed another girl.” And it’s like, no, if you get the sense someone’s misogynistic, that is a red flag. That is not an ick. So I wonder if it’s less the very concept of the ick is this, like, defense mechanism that some women employ when they don’t feel necessarily safe to break something off cold from a man they might not know very well, and more just people using more or less expansive definitions of this word. Like, if some people hear the ick and they’re like, “Here’s my actual deal breaker, here’s my red flag, here’s a very valid reason I broke up with someone,” whereas someone else is using it to mean these silly superficial things. I think we’ve just got people who are casting a too wide net over what the ick is.

Royce: Yeah, a specific word has become more general through overuse.

Courtney: And I believe that there could be situations where a woman would feel very unsafe, but because of societal conditioning, because of always being told that you need to make men comfortable and you have to sacrifice your own comfort for others, and growing up in that misogynistic society, a lot of women do self-minimize their own feeling of lack of safety. So it could be in these situations where it’s hard to bring yourself to identify this as: “This doesn’t feel safe, this feels like a red flag.” But there is still a gut feeling that something’s wrong. And so maybe then you are just sort of looking for a word and you hear everyone talking about the ick and you’re like, “Oh, that’s what it must be.”

Royce: Yeah, it does seem like this term is being overloaded. Or at the very least that, when just saying the ick itself without kind of fully explaining the situation, it is just this sort of vague feeling that is glossing over a lot of different things. Because in the issue of the toenail clipping, like, that wasn’t a very visceral thing about toenails itself. It was a dependency issue.

Courtney: Yes.

Royce: It was not being able to take care of yourself.

Courtney: Yes.

Royce: When you, you know, otherwise should be able to. Or to a certain extent just expecting other people to do things for you instead of doing them for yourselves, which could cascade into a lot of other behaviors. But even for the things that have been described as more superficial, I don’t even like the characterization of them as someone just being picky. Because I think even in some of those instances, the person could be feeling a complex negative feeling that is more than just being picky. It’s just like I’ve been trying to describe it in proximity to feelings of anxiety or the way that you can kind of feel secondhand embarrassment or like a cringe feeling, sometimes those can be complex and you need to actually dig into them to figure out where this is coming from.

Courtney: Yeah, it is really fascinating because– This line from this article says employing the ick under this context, under this framework, is the same reason why women say they have a boyfriend when being hit on by a man they have no interest in, rather than simply saying no, because no isn’t always safe. No is not always enough.

Royce: Which makes sense, but is an entirely different thing than, “I saw them get off the ski lift,” or, “I found out their name was Alan.”

Courtney: Yes, it’s very different. So I think that is going to do it for our little discussion on the ick here. We went in all kinds of directions, hopefully, that led to some interesting or entertaining discussion. And all of the sort of articles and lists that we read from or mentioned we’ll go ahead and pop in the show notes on our website as well as the description box on YouTube if you’re interested in digging into them any further. But for today that is going to bring us to our featured MarketplACE vendor: GeekyFeltFriends. Extremely fun, extremely cute, geeky plushies are handmade with love by a demisexual biromantic woman with ADHD. If you yourself are a touch geeky, please check it out. There are so many fabulous plushies from a variety of games. I really couldn’t help myself, I got a felted Turnip Boy plush because I love committing tax evasion.

Courtney: But there are also some beautiful figures from games such as Hollow Knight, Okami is another one that we have played before. If you’re a Zelda fan, there are, like, korok plushies. Minecraft things, Pokémon. Or if you’re looking for something for Pride, we do have Ace Week coming up extremely soon. As always, it’s the last full Sunday to Saturday week in October. So right around the corner. You can get some Pride flag felted roses, which look like they’re getting retired. They are very cheap and very pretty. You can get the Ace flag, the Aro flag. All sorts of other flags here: Rainbow flag, Trans flag, Non-Binary. Absolutely beautiful handmade art. So links to find GeekyFeltFriends are also gonna be in all of the usual places. Please check them out. And we will talk to you all very soon for Ace Week. Goodbye!